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Author Topic: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo  (Read 1395 times)

The Boogieman

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HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« on: November 27, 2013, 03:14:15 AM »

The problem is forcing the defense to have to make a choice between what is most effective (CR Sitting) and what is moderately effective in the interim when the former is not practical. There is no penalty to picking the most effective option every time, so the defense has no choice. They just CR sit.

Why is the expected outcome from making it difficult for one ship to block angles on the crease going to lead to the defense playing more aggressively? Whether you accomplish this through a bigger net or shooting mechanic changes.

Isn't the more obvious and logical outcome that the defense simply expends more resources to CR sitting? The only reason this doesn't happen already is because it's boring and 1 or 2 ships are more than enough to accomplish this goal. If you make the net bigger or make shooting and goalies faster teams will just be forced to use 2 or 3 ships in this role instead. Those ships will never be inherently more effective chasing the ballcarrier or passing lanes off the crease than on it, no matter how much you try to nerf it indirectly.

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Doobie

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 07:34:06 AM »

The problem is forcing the defense to have to make a choice between what is most effective (CR Sitting) and what is moderately effective in the interim when the former is not practical. There is no penalty to picking the most effective option every time, so the defense has no choice. They just CR sit.

Why is the expected outcome from making it difficult for one ship to block angles on the crease going to lead to the defense playing more aggressively? Whether you accomplish this through a bigger net or shooting mechanic changes.

Isn't the more obvious and logical outcome that the defense simply expends more resources to CR sitting? The only reason this doesn't happen already is because it's boring and 1 or 2 ships are more than enough to accomplish this goal. If you make the net bigger or make shooting and goalies faster teams will just be forced to use 2 or 3 ships in this role instead. Those ships will never be inherently more effective chasing the ballcarrier or passing lanes off the crease than on it, no matter how much you try to nerf it indirectly.

The problem is forcing the defense to make a choice between sitting motionless and attempting to move with the puck/play?  Isn't that choice always there no matter what, the only thing that prox changes is the effectiveness which hopefully pushes that decision more towards the dynamic.

For sake of argument let's use the 1v1 situation. A pylon has a 100% chance at defending a shot on let's say 25% of the net.  A defender who stays between the puck carrier has some chance(dependent upon skill and not tolerance for boredom) to block 100% of the net but the trade off is a risk of failure.  Right now the size of prox makes that decision IMO way too weighted in the direction of the CR sit.

You're right, Rendering the CR sit less effective will cause some people to simply devote more pylons to the task. On odd man rushes or situations with < 3 defenders back it will force the defenders to move to be effective as the CR sit 100% effectiveness level will be too small to anchor them there.  In 5v5 situations teams may dedicate the extra defenders to the crease, which teams already do now, but it will be less effective overall.

The most effective defensive teams will be the ones who have the skill to work together to move to shut down passing angles and stay right between the puck carrier and goal, not the teams most willing to sit motionless on the crease.
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The Boogieman

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 12:31:28 PM »

There is just too much uncertainty and added risk for the goaltender in dedicating most resources to staying in front and playing passing lanes than becoming a reliable option on the crease. Even if playing aggressive defense is more effective overall, the chance of failure will always be higher. I will always take defending 20% of the net at 98% effectiveness over defending 100% of the net at 70%.

I guess in the grand scheme of things this is only a problem in the playoffs with "tryhard" teams. General gameplay would be "improved", if by improved we are talking more goal scoring.



For fun, let's take a look at goalscoring in the RSHL over the last few years.

Regular Season

|Season||Goals Scored||Games Played||Total Teams||PPG (Per Team)|
20
819
20
11
3.72
19
1010
22
11 (No PTW)
4.17
18
840
16
12
4.375
17
1264
24
13
4.05
16
683
18
10
3.794

Playoffs (averaging based on avg games played despite eliminated teams playing less)

|Season||Goals Scored||Avg Games Played||Total Teams||PPG (Per Team)|
20
119
4.75
8
3.13
19
110
4.25
8
3.23
18
80
4.25
8
2.35
17
122
5.25
8
2.904
16
138
5.66
6
4.063

So despite steadily increasing buffs to the offense over time we haven't seen the PPG increase - in fact, the opposite in a very slight trend is occurring. I'm willing to bet this is somewhat a product of these offensive changes having little to do with the CR Sitting interaction, giving the offense more tools that don't change the effectiveness of the primary defense mechanism. In the playoffs, there are some outliers such as S20 and S18. S20 where Dirtybirds & Reppowarriors play the majority, neither team known for CR sitting heavily. S18 where MP and ITF play heavily, both executing defensive gameplans with an emphasis on CR sitting.

The point I think I'm trying to demonstrate with this is that without affecting the defenses ability to CR Sit directly, offensive changes are negligible as CR sitting is such a one dimensional tactic (no interplay with the offensive options). However, I would theorize there is a limit to these changes - once CR sitting is "setting'd out" by virtue of exaggerated buffs, I think those numbers skyrocket which I don't think is intended. In other words, it's a slippery slope.
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Doobie

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 01:36:50 PM »

Gameplay is improved if effective defense involves doing something other than sitting still, regardless of amount of goals scored.  Where as I said before effectiveness correlates with skill rather than boredom tolerance.

The downturn in goals is interesting. Especially, as you noted, during a period of offensive buffs. 

I would agree about a theoretical limit but As far as non-goalie proximity is concerned I don't think we are anywhere near the point that would result in said explosion.

The arguments I hear against prox decrease are mostly based around the challenge of passing and the overall skill level of the community who have been playing the game for years.
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Cwolf

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 03:48:40 PM »

one reason to cr sit is that the offensive player cant fly through you even if you dont shoot him. so it is a fortified position, stronger than any other. if the dc rule was changed so that line counted as dc, but not as cr, then it wouldnt be fortified.
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The Boogieman

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 07:55:51 PM »

goldeye you are huge faggot

there is no way anything will ever improve as long as this guy still has a say in it

i give up, this game is doomed
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Lanc Energy:

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Nerf the prox, Buff accel or make afterburner high risk/high reward, give lanc a slapshot or increase it's shotpwer, fix nrg.

Goldeye

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2013, 11:13:59 AM »

Without laggo, we are doomed.  What have I done?!?!
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Saving

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 12:11:52 AM »

goldeye you are huge faggot

there is no way anything will ever improve as long as this guy still has a say in it

i give up, this game is doomed

i concur with my fellow homie
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Stryke

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 10:34:08 AM »

one reason to cr sit is that the offensive player cant fly through you even if you dont shoot him. so it is a fortified position, stronger than any other. if the dc rule was changed so that line counted as dc, but not as cr, then it wouldnt be fortified.
this
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shlazzer

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Re: HZ Theory Class w/Laggo
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 12:16:20 PM »

intriguing suggestion

differing lines for cr and dc

me gusta
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