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Author Topic: Rebound concept  (Read 3338 times)

Goldeye

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Rebound concept
« on: December 31, 2013, 03:12:21 AM »

1. Give goalies low puck timer (0.75 sec feels about right on the high end, but we should find out how putting it lower feels.)
2. Make shot power negative, so the timer expiring fires the ball forward, and pressing shoot fires it backward.
3. Give goalies slapshot/onetimer so they can fire the ball forward effectively if the situation allows.  This bomb would come WITHOUT shutdown or discharge)

Basically, this means that flying forward and letting the timer expire is a drop pass, flying backward fires it out forward faster, and trying to shoot it to the side puts it a bit behind and you and can be very risky (in a sense, a rebound toward the slot).  A goalie who is prepared should be able to make a clean pass using the bomb (a well earned play), or at least autofire it out to the sides of the goal (a chance for the offense to recover the puck), but might end up simply dropping it (sometimes in the crease) or shooting it out in front if they are too slow.  Naturally, better anticipation of the shot should result in more controlled passes.

There's a lot of nuance to this, and a good deal of getting used to controlling it (tangible drawbacks), but it doesn't seem prone to own goals.
I'm not entirely certain it will be possible to tune it into something good but I'd like to give it a shot. 
The current settings in #goldtest are a first attempt and not ironed out at all.

I'd like to get some private tests in to tune it later this week, and put it in for next week's cashpuck if it looks good.


The primary aim of this change is to 'fight cr sitting' by creating additional penalty for allowing the puck and players to get to the net, (and in the ironic mindfuck that is hockey) encouraging defense to challenge the play and thus allow more space for nice plays if they get beat.  Collapsing should still be a way to improve defensive effectiveness, but incurs additional risk of a dangerous rebound, or at least a turnover.  I'm optimistic it can be a nice way to generate more frequent chaotic yet ultimately skill and teamwork dependent situations.  I also believe that done right it can generally be balanced between lanc and shark, but will help to counter the extreme superiority a lanc has with a lot of defenders around.


In terms of feedback, let's give it a little test before we get our panties in a twist about how it'll play.  Feel free to share what you think needs to be done right to make it effective, and what you expect the pitfalls can be.  After we get a sense of how it plays, we can worry about how to balance it between goalie ships and for total effectiveness.

Laggo: Keep calm and Lundqvist on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 03:43:16 AM by Goldeye »
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The Boogieman

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2013, 03:29:22 AM »

we already tried this and it was terrible last time

i was in the arena

shark has the speed to more or less adjust but lanc does not
letting the timer expire is a gg clusterfuck because the puck doesnt move

it doesnt change anything about the way the defense plays the offense, it just forces goalies to make less decisions and try to make safer passes (like clearing to the boards) than have time to look for the open man

i really hope this never sees the light of day and stays in the dungeon of goldeye's test arena

its not any additional fun for anybody and just makes the game more frustrating for the goalie
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Cereal n Milk

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2013, 03:35:36 AM »

Trying to bk someone in goalie or defend bk in goalie might would be pretty annoying with it, especially with the now low shark health making it a risk to just take the bullet. Would it be possible to make it so pressing shoot is drop pass and pressing mine is the backward shot? It might help with the bks and with people accidentally firing it back into their net.

I also feel that .75 is a tad too low, especially for lanc. It doesn't really seem enough to recover from a save and at least make a half decent pass to a teammate.

What would the cost and delay be for the slapshot/onetimer?

But I'm not really behind this at all, it seems like we'd just be changing something for the hell of it than adding a new degree of skill or fun to the game. I feel like if we're going to put the effort into changing something, it'd be better spent elsewhere.

Edit: Just saw boogie posted, and I pretty much agree with what he's saying.
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2013, 04:04:33 AM »

Trying to bk someone in goalie or defend bk in goalie might would be pretty annoying with it, especially with the now low shark health making it a risk to just take the bullet. Would it be possible to make it so pressing shoot is drop pass and pressing mine is the backward shot? It might help with the bks and with people accidentally firing it back into their net.
I don't think it's a problem if goalies cannot bk well (although perhaps a goalie confident in his energy can use the bomb to do it).  I do still intend to scale up shark nrg.
"The Boogie> so now every lanc 1v0 is basically run at the goalie and try to pass teh ball when he is about to hit you"
I don't know if this is what you meant, but it's definitely something we need to evaluate.  In a sense, this sounds like a five hole goal -- you try to poke the poke and in doing so open the five hole. 
While it's not the prettiest thing, it's still dependent on a shooter's skill at timing it right.  If it is also dependent on the goalie's positioning, it might be interesting!  It also might be terribly lame, but I'd like to give it a shot.

In a sense and to a great extent, this new shark is - by design - more like a real hockey goalie, and it seems to be a lot more fun.  So just looking at it heuristically, trying more things of that nature might make the game more enjoyable (and in the long run, more marketable to a greater hockey audience if we ever hope to grow again)

Quote
I also feel that .75 is a tad too low, especially for lanc. It doesn't really seem enough to recover from a save and at least make a half decent pass to a teammate.
Part of the concept is that if you have to recover, then you should struggle to make a good pass.  However, in situations where you are able to anticipate your action after the save and maintain good control of the ship, it looks like .75 will be PLENTY of time to do it.

Quote
What would the cost and delay be for the slapshot/onetimer?
I imagine cost should be around the same as shooting bullets.  I want to find the point where you will be able to do it easily, but less able to recover if you fire the bomb when and turn it over.  I don't see why there should be any delay at all!

Quote
But I'm not really behind this at all, it seems like we'd just be changing something for the hell of it than adding a new degree of skill or fun to the game. I feel like if we're going to put the effort into changing something, it'd be better spent elsewhere.
It's not for the hell of it, but because it might be able to make the conservative crease sit a little bit more effective.  I am also optimistic that it can be an enjoyable mechanic, and will significantly depend on skill to capitalize on (or shutdown) rebounds.  It's important to understand that skilled plays are best made possible when the defense has to respect gritty and chaotic (aka garbage) plays.  If defense becomes less effective at stopping garbage plays by being conservative, the teams that succeed at breaking the play up preemptively will be more effective, and the teams that can beat the defense will still get more opportunities.  This is just one step in moving towards that goal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 04:14:07 AM by Goldeye »
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The Boogieman

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 04:19:50 AM »

Goldeye actually deleted my response to his latest set of points so I guess I have to summarize.

Avg reaction time is 0.2 milliseconds, and no - you are not predicting every time you catch the ball. You now have .5 seconds find a target. This is barely enough time for lanc to shift momentum from going backwards to forwards. Again, point ignored. All this means is that every time I catch the ball in the slow-ship I am just going to clear it to the boards because it's not worth trying to find a target and getting stuck. My team will adjust and grab the ball from the boards / be ready for it. Doesn't make the game any more fun.

I don't understand at all what this has anything to do with crease sitting. It's a 2D game, there is only one crease. There is no incentive for the defense to be aggressive because the risk/reward is heavily skewed. The best position to take advantage of prox is as close to the net as possible for the defense. None of this has changed. People will CR Sit the same. All it does is make goalies more frustrating.

We tested this in the past if people forget and we didn't like it then either.

And running across the goalie trying to shoot the ball at him when he is about to hit you so he own goals is not good gameplay. It doesn't sound interesting at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 04:22:55 AM by The Boogieman »
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Nerf the prox, Buff accel or make afterburner high risk/high reward, give lanc a slapshot or increase it's shotpwer, fix nrg.

Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 04:32:18 AM »

Cereal n' > i definitely want to try these settings tho in a fc game though

PS. Thank you laggo for putting that reasonably. 

PPS. I just scored the first five hole goal ever in hz and it felt awesome!!!11!!11  It looks like it wouldn't be the worst thing on earth but I'll let you be the judges.
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2013, 11:53:38 AM »

.75 is no where near enough time.

All this is going to do is drive more of a cluster on top of the goalie every time a shot is taken.  Is that really what you want to happen?  I thought the main focus was to get teams to move away from the crease.

 Lots of people have been saying that they want to move the game to a more skill oriented settings rather than the somewhat random occurrences we have now; scoring a goal as a result of a cluster on top of the crease and a random rebound is not something I would take pleasure in as an offensive ship (just kidding I would cause I suck at offense).  It's certainly not something I want to deal with as a goalie.
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The Boogieman

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2013, 01:41:34 PM »

I suspect rebounds would actually not have much consequence on how D is played unless they were overpowered (which would be dum)

Look, as one of the few goalies who is still around from the initial testing of the reduced puck time i can pretty much tell you what would happen if you reduced it.

The initial ptime when the setting was first tested were roughly half what it is now, and the results are what you would expect. There was an increase in own goals, and goalies usually only had enough time to dump the puck to the corner, which just slowed the game down.

This made the position significantly less interesting, and just promoted clustering, so the ptime was slightly increased to compensate. This idea has already been tested, there is no need to rehash it.

Most people don't play goalie because it is subject to every random element in the game, and the skill level of your team directly affects your ability to play the position, reduced puck time does not affect either of those so lets move on to something else if you really want more people to play goalie.

the proposed change to goalie puck time has nothing to do with any of this except to make playing goalie more awkward and stressful by forcing you to get rid of the puck even sooner by one of the most artificial-feeling conditions in the game. the puck time being in this range (2-2.25 seconds depending on the season) was a result more of goalies being able to do insane things after making a save like plowing through an entire offensive attack to make an outlet. do you really want more goals caused by a goalie turnover? they happen a lot already. even if goalies get smart and just dump the puck off to the sides when they can't make a pass, that's SLOWING down the game play, hardly the kind of thing you're looking for.


I went back to that thread for reference because I swore we talked about this for 10 pages before. You should too, we make the same arguments (and you actually partially argue against what you are trying to do now).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 01:48:14 PM by The Boogieman »
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2013, 04:16:45 PM »

.75 is no where near enough time.
Its not enough time to do a consistently good job, but since the alternative is no longer an own goal, it's a bit different.

Quote
All this is going to do is drive more of a cluster on top of the goalie every time a shot is taken.  Is that really what you want to happen?  I thought the main focus was to get teams to move away from the crease.
We are already at the point where any team that "wants to win" collapses to the crease and forces the offense to do this. 

We can't change the fact that collapsing necessitates clusters, but if we can make it so collapsing is less effective, we can change the fact that collapsing is the obvious and only way to win and let teams play the way that suits their styles, desires, and situations.
More concisely: I don't think we need to put an end to clusters or cr sits, only make them cr sits a little more worthwhile.
That's my biggest goal through this entire process.  Maybe properly done rebounds can do this.  Maybe not.  Worth a shot. (Get it?  Shooting is more worthwhile with rebounds!)

Quote
Lots of people have been saying that they want to move the game to a more skill oriented settings rather than the somewhat random occurrences we have now; scoring a goal as a result of a cluster on top of the crease and a random rebound is not something I would take pleasure in as an offensive ship (just kidding I would cause I suck at offense).  It's certainly not something I want to deal with as a goalie.
As I said in an earlier reply, its the need to defend against chaos that makes room to use skill.  That said, I aim to design this so it doesn't just cause pointless open net goals, but more that it causes more GTO when the play is on the crease (so if your team just cr sits, a shot is not an automatic turnover for the offense).  As far as it leads directly to goals, my aim is the offense will usually still need to work to recover the puck then beat the D and recovering goalie, IF the goalie pops it out badly in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 04:39:36 PM by Goldeye »
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 04:38:16 PM »

Thanks for the research laggo.  There's also quite a lot of interest in rebounds in that thread.
In that context, lowered puck time meant more own goals, which isn't the case with this approach.
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2013, 05:29:32 PM »

I'm not making any ultimatums about quitting or retiring as a result.  I just think that its going to lead to an even bigger cluster around the net with more garbage goals than anything else. 
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2013, 05:52:01 PM »

But if that's the case, and those clusters are scarier, then might not a defense want to take the puck away before it gets there?
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The Boogieman

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2013, 05:58:01 PM »

Never because the risk/reward is still god-awful. None of the advantages to CR sitting have changed. Adding more randomness doesn't make CR sitting less desirable, it just makes it more random. More garbage goals.

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Lawn Dwarf

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 06:21:35 PM »

it's all theory right now without testing.

it's a great idea, i've wanted rebounds forever...an actual strategy to throwing the puck at the net.  the goalie needs to be aware of whats going on around him prior to getting it, skating to the hashmarks and throwing an outlet pass...seems to make sense.
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WhiteIrishRebel

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2013, 09:50:11 PM »

I barely even skimmed this thread so sorry in advance:

One of the best settings changes we tried was when goalie time was reduced (rebound potential, longer offensive zone possessions). Goalies had a hard time at first with ass pass own goals and the hold time was then upped some I believe but making the ball fire forward instead of out the ass when hold time runs out coupled with shortened hold time would be awesome imo.
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Cwolf

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2014, 11:46:57 AM »

i find it hard to guess the overall impact this would have just by thinking about it. perfect for testing!

i assume its impossible but it would be cool if somehow the rebound time depended on the way the goalie caught the puck. something like damage from proximity bombs. so if you barely saved it with last pixel it would rebound almost immediately.
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BluckaBlucka

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2014, 12:22:48 PM »

the only way to make clusters less effective is removing the ability to shoot through teammates ( BASICALLY ADD TEAMKILLING TO HOCKEYZONE)

sadly rebounds would result in more clusters as people would get tired of seeing so many dumb goals come as a result of a goalie with 0 vision/0pucktime and just sit by him till the ball is released

if there was a way to make it so you can't catch the ball unless the front of your ship is facing it to some degree(maybe 45degree angle? just throwing number out there) and if it hits the back of your ship it would just redirect out giving us real rebounds instead of forced rebounds :) and potentially tip in/deflections?

« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 12:26:38 PM by BluckaBlucka »
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2014, 01:12:50 PM »

i assume its impossible but it would be cool if somehow the rebound time depended on the way the goalie caught the puck. something like damage from proximity bombs. so if you barely saved it with last pixel it would rebound almost immediately.
if possible this would be ideal
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Daresay

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2014, 05:20:58 PM »

Quoting UKM from three years ago:

but honestly with as3 can't we put some kina real rebound thing in?  like slapshot where you have to press tab within a certain window for a "success" only with goaile the "success" be that you catch puck and have normal hold time and if you fuck up timing then puck shoot out at angle of incidence with velocity reduced by x% and maybe a small variance in the exact angle so its not 100% predictable?
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Cereal n Milk

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 04:38:31 PM »

Quote from: Goldeye
The goal is NOT to generate own goals, or even necessarily juicy rebounds; it's to make it harder for goalies to personally start the breakout.  While this might make goalie "less fun" by reducing their ability to start the attack, it can greatly benefit the game as a whole, and will also distinguish goalie skill.  Goalies will need to react to more unexpected situations, and those with better anticipation, vision, and reactions will be able to make safe or effective passes under more strenuous conditions.

Even if the goal is not to generate own goals or juicy rebounds, it does. If the goal is to make it hard for goalies to start breakouts, I feel like this could be accomplished a bit better and without the side effects. Maybe by just reducing goalie pucktime and decreasing goalie shotpower?

I also feel that making goalie less fun is not something we want to do right now. We're not exactly overflowing with goalies and making goalie less fun and much more frustrating is not going to attract any more to play in net and it is pushing some current goalies away from it.
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