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Author Topic: Rebound concept  (Read 3254 times)

WhiteIrishRebel

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 05:02:36 PM »

i never understood how making goalie harder or more skill based equals less fun

but i'm not a goalie so i dunno

but if i was a goalie i would take whatever change they were making with a smile cuz playing goalie has been boring as shit since at least 2002 so any change has to be better

but i'm not a goalie so i dunno
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 06:23:46 PM »

Its not about making it more skill oriented, I think most of us have embraced the new shark.  We are fearful of the insane randomness that rebounds are going to cause.  The last thing I want to deal with is an even larger cluster of nonsense in front of the goal leading to a goal that is virtually compete garbage. 

Then again I am a shitty goalie that only plays it so I can get ptime
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WhiteIrishRebel

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 06:44:54 PM »

Also no one responded to this post (prob off topic, apologies) :(

I haven't read much so apologies for any redundancy, and I realize this subforum is for like a whole reworking of the settings and are concepts that go way over my head and this thread isn't really for miniscule changes - but 2 very simple (and obvious and recurring-ly asked for) things that have been needed for a long time should be added to this off season league!

1) Get rid of goalie mutli fire

2) Get rid of duds from goalie bullets

On the obvious surface, #1 limits a goalies abilities & #2 increases it - so maybe goalies won't complain? No goalies want goalie duds, but they also complain whenever I suggest getting rid of goalie multi fire.

But #1 has the potential to create slightly more offense via [for lack of a better phrase] deke-ing the goalie and more close quarter freedom for the ball carrier in relation to the goalie to help create more inspiring offensive play without the fear of getting auto checked for getting too close. It may not be a game changer on offense like the implementation of the slapshop but instead more minor like a successful post bounce move but the point is to just create more options in general and keep adding to an offense's arsenal and creativity. The possibility of a missed check creates more options, more usable space and more / longer offensive possessions.

Goalie multi fire is very similar to the lancaster ship's prox in that they both inhibit / limit creativity on offense. Three bullets each shooting out at different angles is just absurd to me and significantly dumbs down 1 of the few skills one can possess in hz, checking ability. So not only can this add to the offense, but it can also add a skill that helps differentiate goalies from one another. We try not to use IRL hockey to compare / contrast with this game but I am going to attempt to use an analogy. Goalie stick / puck handling in the NHL is something a handful of goalies can do at a superior level. It is a very noticeable aspect of the game. Our goalie checking can be the NHL's goalie stick / puck handling. Not the best analogy since we kinda already have our own goalie puck handling skill in our game but hopefully you get what I'm going for. That with single fire for goalies, we can actually create an individual goalie skill and a separation in skill amongst goalies in this one area of goal tending. But with goalie multi fire, every goalie is equal in checking pretty much. Make it an actual skill ffs.

EDIT: And for #2, goalie duds are just lame. How do you feel like a man scoring off one? Same can be asked for goalies who use multi fire actually.
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Hazecloud

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 09:18:45 PM »

these rebound settings have 0% of staying as is, they are way too extreme.  Why should every save be a rebound
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lysdexia

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 09:49:47 PM »

agreed. goldeye let me know if you want my input.
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Cereal n Milk

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 09:58:39 PM »

not just every save, but also every pass back to the goalie and every puck floating slowly down the rink because one team iced it
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 10:12:06 PM »

this is ridiculous
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 03:47:04 AM »

Even if the goal is not to generate own goals or juicy rebounds, it does. If the goal is to make it hard for goalies to start breakouts, I feel like this could be accomplished a bit better and without the side effects. Maybe by just reducing goalie pucktime and decreasing goalie shotpower?

It is key for the design to not generate many own goals.  Juicy rebounds -- in moderation -- are a desirable side effect, especially if they test the goalie's ability to prevent them, and the goalie (and defense) have a chance to react to them.  Decreasing goalie puck time without this new shot power approach leads directly to more own goals. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 04:01:06 AM by Goldeye »
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 04:00:53 AM »

these rebound settings have 0% of staying as is, they are way too extreme.  Why should every save be a rebound

At any rate, this seems to be the case.
Without working in a smarter approach -- probably letting the server decide how much time the goalie gets to pass -- this doesn't look too feasible.  The problem with that is that lag becomes a significant factor.  Seeing as slapshots don't lag too bad, it might work, but I don't think I'll be working on code for that too soon.
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

dragonwing0

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 07:29:06 AM »

I agree with the rebounds being too much. Maybe reduced puck time for goalies as a result of a shot (not merely picking up the puck, steal, or pass from teammate)

Even then, puck time is already minimal to the point a lot of people just pass to a corner of the blueline. I feel like it takes away part of the game for goalie to not be able to make a nice pass to a teammate to clear the zone. So I would avoid reducing it much further.

I think the shark is great though. I've never enjoyed goaling, but it can actually be fun at times. I am definitely more likely to brotate in scrim etc.
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2014, 08:08:23 AM »

Even then, puck time is already minimal to the point a lot of people just pass to a corner of the blueline. I feel like it takes away part of the game for goalie to not be able to make a nice pass to a teammate to clear the zone. So I would avoid reducing it much further.

On the contrary, I think that the ease with which a goalie can make a nice pass -- especially out of the zone -- is particularly detrimental to game play.  That's because it increases the certainty of a shot being a turnover for the offense, and even worse, a quick transition against.  That means that it's more dangerous to commit men to the attack, because even if there's no turnover and a good shot results, the puck can easily and quickly go the other way.  And with these new changes making odd man rushes much more dangerous, that means the mid/4th player should pretty much never pinch up into a rush.

Sure, the idea of a goalie making a big breakout is fun, but the idea of a ship with a ton of acceleration and plenty of energy able to fly through ships and make a stretch play without the help of teammates is simply cheap
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:17:14 AM by Goldeye »
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

dragonwing0

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2014, 09:30:04 AM »

On the contrary, I think that the ease with which a goalie can make a nice pass -- especially out of the zone -- is particularly detrimental to game play.  That's because it increases the certainty of a shot being a turnover for the offense, and even worse, a quick transition against.  That means that it's more dangerous to commit men to the attack, because even if there's no turnover and a good shot results, the puck can easily and quickly go the other way.  And with these new changes making odd man rushes much more dangerous, that means the mid/4th player should pretty much never pinch up into a rush.

Sure, the idea of a goalie making a big breakout is fun, but the idea of a ship with a ton of acceleration and plenty of energy able to fly through ships and make a stretch play without the help of teammates is simply cheap

I feel like having 4 people hover around the goalie hoping they cough it up for an easy garbage goal is cheaper than a nice pass to lead to a breakaway.
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dragonwing0

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2014, 09:40:02 AM »

Here is my thought process. If the goalie has short puck time and it is all about having 4 offense in the zone trying to force a bad goalie pass, it becomes more of a cluster in the zone pushing more people back on the crease to help on defense and to receive the quick short pass. Especially with scoring being easier already. The anti crease sitting sentiment being defeated.
If you leave the ability to have a break away it causes less people in the zone, one for the 4th O / midfielder playing more conservative, one for the person hoping to receive the pass from the goalie to start the breakaway you are concerned about. Creating more room on offense. You still have the option of running 4 O and expecting the D+G to do their job.

Shrug, just a thought.
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2014, 09:48:55 AM »

I feel like having 4 people hover around the goalie hoping they cough it up for an easy garbage goal is cheaper than a nice pass to lead to a breakaway.

Fair enough, but having 4 defensive people hover around the goalie defensively is cheaper still, and even worse if it's followed by the goalie rushing out as soon as he saves it to clear the puck to a warbird who plays keepaway.

When I said cheap, I meant it in a more economic sense.  I love a nice thread pass, but a goalie is in a position to often do it safely and before anyone can really react.  And if he set up a breakaway, what offensive use were the other 4 players on the team?  I'd rather see the goalie pick the correct teammate nearby, and have him send it deep.

At some point you have to choose the lesser of evils, and I'd rather have the occasional cheap goal than the frequent cheap defense (especially when that occasional cheap goal breaks the cheap defense).

I suppose this is all moot now, but it's also a good discussion for if we decide to revisit the topic.

PS. We do not ever need to discourage attackers from getting involved in the play, because their doing so allows more room for (fun) counter attacks.  If they are lingering for a rebound instead of heading back to D, that's one less defender clogging the neutral zone and playing D.
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

dragonwing0

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2014, 10:09:34 AM »

I suppose I am confused as to why there would be less defenders when we make it harder to pass with the goalie.

If the enemy team has 4 people in the zone trying intercept a goalie pass, wouldn't you think there would be more people staying in their own zone trying to give the goalie options instead of streaking for a breakaway?

Part of the failure of out current offense is the restrictions of space built around a 2d game. Having more people clogging the zone makes it harder to make nice passes right? But we want to encourage people to cluster around the goalie for a cheap goal?
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dragonwing0

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 10:15:44 AM »

I feel like it is trading one cluster in midfield for an even bigger cluster on the crease. Itf offense is already a strong playing style. Increasing chances for it to happen more often seems the opposite of what is desired. No offense to ITF, I'd rather see more free wheeling teams going on breakaways than crowding the crease.
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Goldeye

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Re: Rebound concept
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 10:36:29 AM »

I suppose I am confused as to why there would be less defenders when we make it harder to pass with the goalie.

On the contrary, I think that the ease with which a goalie can make a nice pass -- especially out of the zone -- is particularly detrimental to game play.  That's because it increases the certainty of a shot being a turnover for the offense, and even worse, a quick transition against.  That means that it's more dangerous to commit men to the attack, because even if there's no turnover and a good shot results, the puck can easily and quickly go the other way.  And with these new changes making odd man rushes much more dangerous, that means the mid/4th player should pretty much never pinch up into a rush.

That's pretty much my answer, but I'll try to elaborate.  The risk of attacking aggressively (likelihood of turnover/counterattack * damage resulting from turnover/counterattack) is just too great to justify it.  Rebounds, if done properly, are more about affecting that likelihood than about directly leading to scoring chances (though since anything chaotic is a good way to beat a cr sit, that is a bonus).  Restricting goalie passing reduces the likelihood of a dangerous counter from a team that is otherwise playing too conservatively to make it happen.  If a team positions more aggressively, they can still find ways to get a counterattack happening as a team besides having a quarterback goalie throwing a hail mary
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd
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