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Author Topic: Got Ideas?  (Read 1290 times)

BluckaBlucka

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 02:38:59 PM »

cant you just make your own bullet system or adjust a different setting that affects the way ships take dmg?

it seems really dumb that we have to try to revive/build a game around a setting that no one but goldeye enjoys.
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Goldeye

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 04:18:31 PM »

it seems really dumb that we have to try to revive/build a game around a setting that no one but goldeye enjoys.
Barely anyone even knows how the bullets work, so how exactly are you supposed to know that something else will be better?

Here's how it all works:

1. Static damage: There are two settings, (I forget their exact damage so call them) BulletBase and BulletUpgrade.
L1 bullets always do BulletBase.  L2 bullets always do BulletBase + BulletUpgrade.  L3 = BulletBase + 2*BulletUpgrade,  L4 = BulletBase + 3*BulletUpgrade.
2. Random damage (legacy): Bullets do anywhere from 0 to their static damage level.  IIRC, it's calculated as StaticDamage * sqrt(RAND())
3. Server-controlled static damage (HZ only): Static damage is on, and decides the bullet damage levels, but the server decides which level the bullet is.
3a. (RBL) Random bullet level: Using that, we created probability distributions to decide the odds of each bullet, and it's different for each ship.
3b. (VRBL) Velocity-adjusted random bullet level: We add a bonus to the random number based on the relative velocity.

Using #3, you can do anything you can code to control which level bullet appears (to each player).  You can't escape the L1 = X [...] L3 = X + 2Y pattern, though.



I don't have a strong preference on how bullets work, though I do believe we're better off with what we have than static.
With what we have, you can get rid of all the lame tanks (like L3 doing 1 damage with old random damage) but control the odds in other situations.  i don't think random damage causing more-than-usual damage is a bad thing because deliberate tanking with confidence is pretty cheesy, and this lets us change the odds there.
Energy is continuous but bullet damage is discrete.  Without some of random damage, you could do things like make sure you never go below 324 damage (picked a number) and know you will NEVER die to a warbird.  A jav can float at 534 damage (made up) and know he will NEVER die to a terr.
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WhiteIrishRebel

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2017, 06:05:04 PM »


I don't have a strong preference on how bullets work, though I do believe we're better off with what we have than static.
With what we have, you can get rid of all the lame tanks (like L3 doing 1 damage with old random damage) but control the odds in other situations. i don't think random damage causing more-than-usual damage is a bad thing because deliberate tanking with confidence is pretty cheesy, and this lets us change the odds there.Energy is continuous but bullet damage is discrete.  Without some of random damage, you could do things like make sure you never go below 324 damage (picked a number) and know you will NEVER die to a warbird.  A jav can float at 534 damage (made up) and know he will NEVER die to a terr.

I never cared enough to read random vs static dmg debates, but the bold part is interesting. I can't speak for everybody... but if I'm in ships 2 through 6 with a lot of nrg and an nme wb is locked in on me, I do exactly what you are saying 'would be' cheesy anyways.. I know the wb isn't supposed to kill me, and just because for some reason it might kill me, it doesn't change how I play [in that situation]. Which would be to give a minimal effort to dodge it just for NRG's sake, but not really care if it hits me..

EDIT: I basically play pub/scrim and even RSHL like it's static dmg alrdy. If I'm in a spider and I dud a ter bullet, I give up the ball because I should have died. I failed. My intention in spider is to never get checked by a terrier, but instead I got rewarded for it.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 06:14:18 PM by WhiteIrishRebel »
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Goldeye

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2017, 06:26:36 PM »

That situation sounds fine.  But I'm more concerned with jav flying past a spid / terr.  I (personally) don't enjoy that being a 100% tank situation -- I like that we can control the odds.  Even more importantly, I like that we can play with the odds of ships surviving at partial health.

Since we did get rid of bullshit random damage tanks, what is the actual argument against random bullet level?  All I recall is the sentiment that anything non-deterministic is bad and undermines skill, etc.  That's a purely philosophical argument.  There is plenty of chaos in this game -- death passes are an obvious example -- why does it matter if a particular part of that comes from a random number generator? 
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

Doobie

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2017, 07:27:20 PM »

The bullshit random damage tanks are not gone.  They won't be gone until random damage is gone. 1 damage or 100 matters little when the 0 threshold is not crossed.  The reason legacy random was bad is the same reason any random is bad.

Jav tanking a Levi?  Its possible.  Why?
Weasel tanking 2 Terrier/Spider shots.  It's possible.  Why? 
Jav tanking 3 terrier/spider shots.  It's possible.  Why?
Jav tanking 6 wb/weasel shots.  It's possible.  Why?
Wb tanks the goalie.  It's possible.  Why?

Nobody feels satisfied when ANY of the above happens. 

If random damage is removed from both sides of the equation all that's left is the skill and decision making of the players. 

The existence of tanks/off ball damage in a random damage environment is the killer for me.  After a player is shot with the ball who  "should" have died, what do I know?  Thanks to random damage, nothing.

A COMPLETELY full energy weasel/terrier/spider tanking a wb/weasel?  Great.  The next shot will get them and they aren't going anywhere.
A COMPLETELY full energy jav/levi tanking a terrier/spider? Great.  The next shot will get them and they aren't going anywhere.

What is your first thought when I suggest the new HZ feature, the speed at which the ball is shot is now determined by RNG, as well as the angle?

The lack of RNG is what makes games like this great.  When a player wants to shoot top corner whether or not they do it is entirely up to execution.  Not some magic wrist shot accuracy number for a player.

Additional Edit:
Maybe it's just me but I will take a ship reliably tanking 1 bullet over the slightest chance of them tanking 4, no question.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 07:33:40 PM by Doobie »
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Doobie

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2017, 07:45:41 PM »

cant you just make your own bullet system or adjust a different setting that affects the way ships take dmg?

I do not have the ability to install modules currently, so I can't:
1) Install a system I implement
2) Make fundamental changes to the existing system and re-install.  I can change the variables it exposes, and at first glance I didn't see a way to make it static, but upon further investigation... maybe

What I can do is edit just about every other setting in HZ.
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Goldeye

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2017, 10:47:14 AM »

The bullshit random damage tanks are not gone.  They won't be gone until random damage is gone. 1 damage or 100 matters little when the 0 threshold is not crossed.  The reason legacy random was bad is the same reason any random is bad.
Cannot parse.

Quote
Jav tanking a Levi?  Its possible.  Why?
Weasel tanking 2 Terrier/Spider shots.  It's possible.  Why? 
Jav tanking 3 terrier/spider shots.  It's possible.  Why?
Jav tanking 6 wb/weasel shots.  It's possible.  Why?
Wb tanks the goalie.  It's possible.  Why?

Nobody feels satisfied when ANY of the above happens.
General answer to "Why?": because the numbers aren't very good.  IIRC, we started by roughly matching the distributions from random damage, and only made a few corrections over the seasons.  Everything was at a balance, and starting from objectives like the above would have been as good as starting from scratch. 

Quote
If random damage is removed from both sides of the equation all that's left is the skill and decision making of the players. 
- That is a purely philosophical point.
- That is wrong.  There are plenty of chaotic factors in the game.  The impact of lag is an obvious extrinsic factor.   But close quarters / cluster fuck interactions are often below the precision of pilot control, resulting in a more 'natural' chaos too.  If / when chaos benefits the game, why does it matter whether it is caused by an RNG or by physics that are too small to control?
- One could argue that by allowing velocity to affect the bullet level, it is actually increasing the impact of skill.

Quote
The existence of tanks/off ball damage in a random damage environment is the killer for me.  After a player is shot with the ball who  "should" have died, what do I know?  Thanks to random damage, nothing.
Refs know if the play was due to lag or not...

Quote
A COMPLETELY full energy weasel/terrier/spider tanking a wb/weasel?  Great.  The next shot will get them and they aren't going anywhere.
A COMPLETELY full energy jav/levi tanking a terrier/spider? Great.  The next shot will get them and they aren't going anywhere
Okay, this can be achieved by getting the numbers right, both with random levels or without.

Quote
What is your first thought when I suggest the new HZ feature, the speed at which the ball is shot is now determined by RNG, as well as the angle?
Shitty analogy is shitty.

Quote
The lack of RNG is what makes games like this great.  When a player wants to shoot top corner whether or not they do it is entirely up to execution.  Not some magic wrist shot accuracy number for a player.
Yet whether they pick up the puck in a pile of three players, that's not entirely execution.

Quote
Additional Edit:
Maybe it's just me but I will take a ship reliably tanking 1 bullet over the slightest chance of them tanking 4, no question.
What's with the absolute?  If the odds of tanking X bullets in Y seconds is 1 / 1000, is that really going to give you pall?


Frank opinions: random bullet level is being accused of things it is not systematically responsible for.  The config numbers have a lot of room to improve.  Using random numbers to simulate certain interactions (like a check) playing out is not a giant sin and the character of these debates is misguided for the end of actually making gameplay better. 
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

Doobie

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2017, 02:58:32 PM »

Help parsing: If a ship has X energy and is hit by Y bullets, if the total damage is less than X the end result is the same. 

Meaning the "bullshit" damage that resulted had Y rolls of 1 damage and Y rolls that add up to X-1 have effectively the same result.


I love velocity damage and think it should have even more of an effect.

Adjusting the random damage thresholds sounds like a great idea, but when they reach a certain point they behave so reliably they may as well just be static.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 03:04:31 PM by Doobie »
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BluckaBlucka

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2017, 03:01:00 PM »

is there a way to increase the dmg a ship takes after being hit once already?

say a warbird hits a javelin for the next X amount of seconds the javelin will take 25% increased dmg from ships(this would be to simulate off balanced player or a minor injury he trying to shake off) cause no players stay at 100% throughout a game they slowly deteriorate. Can also make it so if the ship releases the ball the debuff would be removed.

This would make random dmg a little bit more tolerable if we have to play with it.
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Doobie

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2017, 03:07:57 PM »

Not without inventing something new but the same general effect can be achieved by its effect on overall energy level. 

Hit once = enough energy left that any bullet kills you if hit within a reasonable time frame and not enough energy left to do anything big(slap or thrust much)
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BluckaBlucka

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2017, 03:27:10 PM »

I wish bullets were consistent like that but the amount of layered randomness bullets have doesn't allow for that ever

What is the % chance of proccing random dmg? or is it base random with a chance at proccing static dmg?

if its neither of those than we're even more fucked than I thought.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 03:32:43 PM by BluckaBlucka »
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Doobie

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2017, 04:14:39 PM »

Read above
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BluckaBlucka

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2017, 04:27:59 PM »

doesn't show what the % chance is to proc anything.

what were they intending random dmg to be a 1/10 2/10/ 3/10 like it would be good to know. Don't see other games hiding the % to crit or % to bash so people know what their odds of getting through the randomness is.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 04:30:39 PM by BluckaBlucka »
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I transform with pressure; I'm hands-on with effort
I fell twice before; my bounce back was special
Letdowns will get you, and the critics will test you
But the strong will survive; another scar may bless you

Goldeye

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2017, 08:57:11 AM »

is there a way to increase the dmg a ship takes after being hit once already?
Yes, we can change the way bullet level is calculated for some time period after a hit.

Not without inventing something new but the same general effect can be achieved by its effect on overall energy level. 

Hit once = enough energy left that any bullet kills you if hit within a reasonable time frame and not enough energy left to do anything big(slap or thrust much)
Finding the perfect balance between damage, energy, recharge, and thrust is going to be near impossible.  Knobs that let you change one part without affecting the others, like what Blucka suggested, will make it a lot easier to do a good job.
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Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

Doobie

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2017, 09:09:17 AM »

Probably damn near impossible but worth a shot.

I am going to make an attempt with the knobs I got, will incorporate new knobs as they become available. 
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BluckaBlucka

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Re: Got Ideas?
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2017, 03:14:20 PM »

reduce offball dmg dealt to warbird or increase delay between bullets for majority of ships or a little bit of both?
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Hey, I am the greatest; hey, this is the proof
Hey, I work hard, pray hard, pay dues, hey
I transform with pressure; I'm hands-on with effort
I fell twice before; my bounce back was special
Letdowns will get you, and the critics will test you
But the strong will survive; another scar may bless you
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