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Poll

Do you like Random Damage?

Yes
- 8 (29.6%)
No
- 14 (51.9%)
Dont care
- 5 (18.5%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Voting closed: July 14, 2017, 08:39:33 PM


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 7

Author Topic: Random Damage  (Read 1883 times)

SuperDan

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Random Damage
« on: June 23, 2017, 08:39:33 PM »

Posting for Pose
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 08:58:13 PM »

super D, thx u for posting but i must politely submit 2 complaints:

#1 why u force this poll into this subforum when it would have much bigger sample size in main forum

#2 the way i worded it was intentionally designed to benefit my position and u sabotaged it :(


but i 4got this forum existed to i wanna read doobies thread before i proceed w my next crusade
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2017, 09:02:57 PM »

ok read doobies thread and its just abt technicalities which is cool but diff than trying to get feel for what hz population wants

has there been a poll recently on this topic? if not can we legit make a for real one that samples the main forum so we can get a nice amt of responses?

or has the bod already decided it would be rad to get rid of random dmg? plz fill me in. i realize im coming here suddenly after missing out on a lot the past few years and im startinf all these crusades but its bc im for real wantin to play next season and prob even gonna help put some money up for winner of rshl and so these are genuine concerns as random dmg is bad for competiton and pace of rshl
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Musiq

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 10:06:20 PM »

are there notes about random damages/chances of dudding etc.?
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zero seven

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 10:53:41 PM »

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NhuLoMJ2lN329gxjdRjJ8Cwcg6e62G1qwruGwkrWZe4/edit?usp=sharing


Look at On Ball and Off Ball tabs. You can see the percentage probability by ship, e.g. Warbirds has pretty much a 50/50 chance of L1 or L2 bullet damage.
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Musiq

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2017, 11:24:45 PM »

neat. thanks
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 12:04:25 AM »

could anybody who voted Yes plz tell me what you like about random damage?

i genuinely have no idea why somebody would want to discourage people checking.  well really it doesnt even really much discourage people as much as it just penalizes them for it.. every once in a while

edit:  also can u explain that table a little?  for example WB off-ball bullet chance for L1 70% and L2 30%.. does this mean if you hit a ship that doesnt have the puck in a wb, the bullet will be an L1 bullet 70% of the time and L2 30%?

edit edit: nm ill just read doobies thread
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 12:13:58 AM by Poseidon »
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zero seven

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 02:46:02 PM »

does this mean if you hit a ship that doesnt have the puck in a wb, the bullet will be an L1 bullet 70% of the time and L2 30%?

Yes. If you look at my google doc in the same thread I calculate out "expected" damage for on an off ball given these probabilities with random damage and then translate as best as possible into static damage with base continuum settings - which has serious limitations on how dmg is calculated as well.
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Goldeye

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2017, 12:37:25 PM »

Biggest benefit of random damage IMO is that it allows you to adjust the odds based on relative velocity.  So you're more likely to get the heavier bullet if you're lunging at an oncoming puck carrier rather than backing up with them.

Also, I think the fact that you're not guaranteed to tank (e.g. jav getting hit by spid) when you expect to is a good thing. 
The fact that you're not guaranteed to kill when you expect to is less of a good thing, but that is easily addressed by not letting each ship go below the expected level.

When you consider velocity as a way to counter attempts to tank, that's pretty cool imo.
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Fur of Fur

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2017, 06:00:14 PM »

I'd actually like too see stronger momentum effects to potentially further promote aggressive checking, and the bottom line tweaked to ensure people don't get a lucky free ride... As a compromise to what should be stronger checking, maybe we would need a longer delay between checks across the board, and maybe a slight boost too off puck checking to counter that delay.

But generally the random mechanic has depth beyond a dice roll for damage that could be far better exploited. The core aspects of what we have are vastly better than 15 years ago.

For clarity, I'd call it static dmg + momentum bonus.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 06:05:24 PM by Fur of Fur »
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2017, 06:56:43 PM »

Biggest benefit of random damage IMO is that it allows you to adjust the odds based on relative velocity.  So you're more likely to get the heavier bullet if you're lunging at an oncoming puck carrier rather than backing up with them.

Also, I think the fact that you're not guaranteed to tank (e.g. jav getting hit by spid) when you expect to is a good thing. 
The fact that you're not guaranteed to kill when you expect to is less of a good thing, but that is easily addressed by not letting each ship go below the expected level.

When you consider velocity as a way to counter attempts to tank, that's pretty cool imo.

goldeye i agree w a lot of this, but i still dont think bullets should be a "gamble", as arnk describes them.

also superdan didnt word my poll right, i worded in a way to try to account for some ships like jav and levi being naturally tankier. 
i think i asked something like:

"would you prefer for a bullet to do the same amount of damage each time it hits a specific ship"  and if i could do it over i would modify it to say: "would you prefer each bullet to be a gamble or each bullet do a static amount of damage at any given velocity every time it hits a specific ship"   A:  GAMBLE or STATIC or DON'T CARE (for the record i still wish we could have a poll with the above wording in the main HZ forum to get a better feel for what the community thinks)

i think that jav and levi's being able to tank an L2 bullet if they have full energy is chill, as long as its consistent.  my problem mainly is that sometimes terr or spid or even WB i think will randomly tank an L2 bullet which is just not cool to me.  checking is difficult and should be rewarded as its already a risk in and of itself.  by adding an extra gamble it encourages more turtle style gameplay and results in goals scored because of a lucky tank- i feel this takes away from the gameplay of the zone.

you could still incorporate velocity based damage.. it just doesnt have to be random.  there can be velocity based damage without having to have "odds".  why would you want it to be a gamble?  i think the ideal system would be something like, for example, an L2 bullet will always take 80% of total energy from a jav and 70% of total energy from a levi, but a full velocity L2 would increase that to 100% total energy, and scale linearly from 0 to full velocity.  we should encourage energy conservation being a skill that people benefit from if they take the time to learn;  it adds another dimension to the gameplay.  as it is now, the degree to which a player should bother to consider or learn the dynamics of energy conservation is unnecessarily limited, particularly as far as checking is concerned, because the system is too convoluted and theres too much randomness at play.

basically i agree with what fur of fur seems to be saying.  it just really irks me that every once in a while a spider for example will survive a well placed L2 check.  there seems to be no benefit in this.   i mean, even having random damage on a reward-only basis would be cool to me - as in, an L2 bullet will sometimes kill a jav or levi, but should always kill any other ship.  i just hate that in its current iteration it is, on random occasions, a punishment which increases random luck and encourages slower, more conservative gameplay. 

where is the zone/BoD at in regards to potentially altering our damage system and making it less random?  goldeye, what dont you like about what i just described as an example of the best type of system to put in place?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 07:16:34 PM by Poseidon »
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Goldeye

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2017, 07:28:19 PM »

What you just described about velocity having an impact without random damage is mostly impossible.  At best, you have a line where once you pass a particular speed, you get the next level bullet.  But going from something continuous - like velocity - to something discrete like bullet level without even having odds involved, is a pretty lame thing to have in a game.

And I'm not repeating what I said in the last post.  Read it again, particularly the part where I say raising the minimums would be very reasonable to do.
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I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2017, 10:00:20 PM »

i disagree that its lame to remove the randomness from it, i dont really follow that logic.  ill use super smash brothers melee for example. everything is static.  you can charge smash moves from like 0-3 seconds, and its linear.  so ill make up this example, a 1.5 sec charge fox up smash will kill a 85% HP jigglypuff every single time.  players know a lot of these %, or they can feel them out at least, and its adds to the depth of skill and strategy.  i bet anybody who plays that game competitively would think its super lame if randomness was arbitrarily added to the mix.  i realize that your saying its not possible to have subspace be that linear cause your only working with 3 levels of dmg, but its still the same concept (though there are L4 bullets, i guess we dont utilize them?).

but at any rate, i personally wouldn't really mind the velocity based added damage being somewhat random.   for me, yes, this is more about the minimums, and removing any randomness from the base damage before velocity is factored in.  imo the velocity should just be a bonus that allows L1 bullets to sometimes kill or at least drain more energy, and allows L2 bullets to sometimes kill jav and levi or at least drain more energy.  so yes, the velocity based damage would become irrelevant in a lot of situations, like a terr shooting a weas for example.  but its totally worth it to remove this excess of randomness that we currently have.  i guess to clarify, my question to you is:

do you think an L2 bullet should kill ships 1,3,5,6 every time they hit? and also raise the minimums for jav and levi?

is there anybody that's opposed to this?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 10:04:01 PM by Poseidon »
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Goldeye

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2017, 04:40:29 PM »

Pose, you really would be a lot easier to deal with if you typed less and read more.  You're on the right track but you keep repeating what you and others say, and it seems to really frustrate people.  This is the third post where we have both said that raising the minimum damages would be good.

i realize that your saying its not possible to have subspace be that linear cause your only working with 3 levels of dmg, but its still the same concept (though there are L4 bullets, i guess we dont utilize them?).
It's not at all the same concept! 
A 1.5 sec charge kills an 85% Jigglypuff. (Suppose) a 1.8 sec charge then kills an 80% Jigglypuff.  That is continuous. 
With VRBL (velocity-based random bullet level, the current system) and made up numbers, hitting someone with 0 relative velocity gives you a 10% change of an L3 bullet, 1000 relative velocity gives you a 30% chance, and 2000 relative velocity gives you a 60% chance. 
If you get rid of random then there's no more chance involved.  So 0 rv gives you an L2.  1000 rv gives you an L2. That's not continuous.  1357 rv gives you an L2, but 1358 gives you an L3.  That knife-edge transition is bad game design in a game where nearly all of the mechanics are continuous.

TBH I don't know of any good objections to random bullet levels as long as the minimums are satisfactory.
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I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
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Doobie

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 05:38:33 PM »

TBH I don't know of any good objections to random bullet levels as long as the minimums are satisfactory.

Not a single good objection after YEARS of discussion on the matter? 
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Blessings_of_Sins

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2017, 05:51:20 PM »

EDITED AS REQUESTED BY POSE
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 06:55:02 PM by Blessings_of_Sins »
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Goldeye

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2017, 06:13:23 PM »

Not a single good objection after YEARS of discussion on the matter? 
Like I remember every discussion from all these YEARS.

Pretty much all the distaste I recall for random is for when a ship doesn't die when you expect it to.  There's "OMG no random!11!" but tbh, I don't consider that on its own to be a strong objection.  The difference between random and chaotic (in the context of gameplay) seems purely semantic anyway.
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

SuperDan

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2017, 06:19:55 PM »

I think the only argument that you need to oppose random damage is that people feel that the RNG hurts the game. There is no 'skill' involved and that for some odd reason, certain people always seem to 'dud' more than others.

That's the argument, i don't see what other one there could be.
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Goldeye

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 06:39:12 PM »

I think the only argument that you need to oppose random damage is that people feel that the RNG hurts the game. There is no 'skill' involved
That's hardly an argument.  How does RNG hurt the game? 
Having the potential to kill a ship that expects to dud discourages overreliance on duds and encourages defenders to take the chance (lunge) for a check that *might* get a kill instead of *definitely won't*.
VRBL introduces an extra element that encourages more aggressive defense and allows players to use their skills to increase or decrease the likelihood of a successful check.

for some odd reason, certain people always seem to 'dud' more than others.
That's definitely not the case.  But it's human nature to think it is.  Also, it's not always easy to decide if something was a tank or dud if you didn't see it the little lvz thing (or for ref freq, get the message)
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Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
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SuperDan

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2017, 07:08:54 PM »

How does RNG hurt the game? Take last night for example.. in less than a second(or maybe 2), a jav dudded 3 shots, 2 wbs and a spider, picked up a shitty lag delay ball drop over 2 people and scored.. Now obviously this isn't really anything new which why it was shrugged off by both teams as "of course that happened." But honestly how  does that not hurt the game or make any sense. I understand the whole purpose of random damage and duds was in actual hockey, players shrug off checks or position themselves to keep their balance and move foward and the only way to create that in our game is a a random chance they survive a check. What I don't see in hockey is a player who gets checked body checked 3 time by different players in a row and survive to tell about it..

and on top of that, there is still plenty of times that the module doesn't call a tank or dud, and 50% of the people see a missed check, and 50% people see the ship get hit with a check... and then ontop of that, you got the randomness of velocity damage...

Anyways, do I think we'll change it much for this next season for RSHL?, i doubt it.. Will it be tinkered around and/or removed to test out in my other side league, that's a yes.
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