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Poll

Do you like Random Damage?

Yes
- 8 (29.6%)
No
- 14 (51.9%)
Dont care
- 5 (18.5%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Voting closed: July 14, 2017, 08:39:33 PM


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 ... 7

Author Topic: Random Damage  (Read 1917 times)

Goldeye

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2017, 07:14:26 PM »

How does RNG hurt the game? Take last night for example.. in less than a second(or maybe 2), a jav dudded 3 shots, 2 wbs and a spider, picked up a shitty lag delay ball drop over 2 people and scored..
How is that a problem with RNG and not just the "holy fuck make the minimum bullets stronger" point that I haven't seen anyone disagree with?
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SuperDan

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2017, 07:43:17 PM »

you act like i read everything and think and stuff.. even if thats the case, i still say poo poo to random damage..
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Doobie

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM »

So there is no point in discussing or implementing anything with static damage anymore.  Check.
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2017, 09:38:23 PM »

Pose, you really would be a lot easier to deal with if you typed less and read more.  You're on the right track but you keep repeating what you and others say, and it seems to really frustrate people.  This is the third post where we have both said that raising the minimum damages would be good.
... That's not continuous.  1357 rv gives you an L2, but 1358 gives you an L3.  That knife-edge transition is bad game design in a game where nearly all of the mechanics are continuous.

TBH I don't know of any good objections to random bullet levels as long as the minimums are satisfactory.

eh i could say the same goldeye!  i was stating that i know that what we currently have is not continuous and that is my prob, not that i think we currently use a continuous system.  the SSBM example was used to illustrate that if they used the system we currently use instead of a linear system, they would think its rly lame and takes away from the game!  aka they wouldnt want a DUD on their velocity-based smashes when they are expecting a kill.  by "same concept" i meant the concept of trying to have everything be 100% predictable, even if we are only working with 3 or 4 tiers of dmg instead of maybe the 8-12 or so that smash has.

but.. again, moot points for me cause i dont rly care about randomness if it deals w/ a bonus (by means of velocity) and not a punishment (by means of duds).  i understand that they are interrelated but i think we have a total overkill of duds atm. i realize that you agree.  but we haven't established to what extent. so really, this for me is a conversation more specifically about the total elimation of DUDS than it is about minimums, because minimums might not get raised enuff to adequately stop the duds. and you didnt reply to my most important point.  do you think an L2 bullet should kill ship 1, 3, 5, 6 every time, regardless of velocity? 

i feel like if you answer that ill understand better if we are on the same page about minimums

for sake of this discussion, my definition of DUD: Dud - a bullet that doesnt kill on a minority of random off chances, used to create a system where a greater emphasis can be put on velocity based random damage.

duds fuck up the gameplay and encourage a more turtle-style defense, more boring gameplay, and constant frustration. in order to remove this duds, we need to sacrifice a good deal of the space created by duds for velocity-based damage


edit: trimmed sum fat  sry if its 2 long i rly tried




« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 04:46:11 AM by Poseidon »
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zero seven

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2017, 09:51:47 PM »

Dud does not equal random.

Dud is when the damage dealt (independent of whether you used a dynamic or static calculation to determine the bullet level) is less than the ball carrier's remaining energy.

Can this be confirmed? Having hard time since dud was introduced roughly 9 years ago.

http://rshl.org/forums/index.php/topic,28725.0.html Talking about lagger message.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:55:10 PM by zero seven »
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2017, 09:54:50 PM »

but its random if a dud will happen... no?  making it.. random?  am i missing something?

goldeye for the sake of this conversation i hope you will use my definition of dud, as that is what we are all talkign about, and not whatevtf was just stated above me.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:01:24 PM by Poseidon »
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zero seven

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2017, 09:59:14 PM »

Not making an argument against static damage. Just that seeing duds isn't a reflection of random damage.

say L1 wb on ball static damage is 200. Levi has puck with full energy standing still at 700 energy.

Two WB's checking the Levi with no movement and no thrusting whatsoever should create 2 dud messages prior to a kill. Every time. Dud is not random.
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2017, 10:02:14 PM »

 zs, we're not trying to create a new math theorem here, we're trying to have ships fukin die when it makes sense for them to

so i hope you'll agree that for the sake of this argument, the way that i defined "dud" is more relevant
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Doobie

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2017, 10:24:18 PM »

zs, we're not trying to create a new math theorem here, we're trying to have ships fukin die when it makes sense for them to

so i hope you'll agree that for the sake of this argument, the way that i defined "dud" is more relevant

No.  You are out of your depth. 
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2017, 11:04:13 PM »

no, you are caught up in your depth.  we are trying to discuss a basic premise.  the math theorems can come later. 

that or yr just looking for another opportunity to be an obnoxious ass when im trying to keep the convo relevant
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Doobie

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2017, 12:07:13 AM »

You win, continue in your relevance.
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2017, 12:28:05 AM »

ill clarify:  zero i understand what you are saying and why you are saying it and its good info to have, but i feel its a distraction from the conversation at hand as what is frustrating here is that there are times when we, as hz players, know that a bullet which would kill the majority of the time sometimes randomly duds and doesnt result in a kill.  this is so shitty with regards to certain bullet and ship combinations that it doesnt justify its aim in creating more space for velocity based damage.

does anybody disagree that this is the basic issue at hand that we are hoping to somehow resolve or at least compromise a little more on?
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Blessings_of_Sins

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2017, 01:18:42 AM »

EDITED AS REQUESTED BY POSE
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 06:52:43 PM by Blessings_of_Sins »
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2017, 03:26:21 AM »

non goalie wtf you talking about gtfo u need 2 stop drop and go read real poseidon story

and wtf, nobody's on the same page, or if they are theres no evidence of it in this thread.  we got doobie spouting off random insults. we got goldeye vs'ing my reading comprehension but not comprehending what im saying.  thats prob my fault for typing 2 much but still.  then we got superdan who jus has no idea whats going on and then zero seven comes in tryin 2 pythagorem theorem a dud as if it has anything to do with the real point of this thread.

i mean jesus christ... just read the thread man.  Doobie> "So there is no point in discussing or implementing anything with static damage anymore.  Check."  its pretty obvious that we aren't all on the same page, i mean that comment from doobie implies the total fucking opposite. and you and goldeye dont even understand the point im trying to make.  so i dont get why you are vs'ing me about this.  i understand the situation, you dont have to explain to me what adjusting minimum damage would do, as is obvious if u read my posts.  rly kinda curious if your just trolling me. im sry im internet yelling vs you but youre giving me PTSD from TW thread all over again
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 05:03:49 AM by Poseidon »
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2017, 04:53:15 AM »

and BoS, you obviously arent totally understanding.  so allow me to explain:

if we adjust the minimum damage as such where an L2 bullet will always kill ships 1,3,5,6, (which is the whole point of this thread for me) then there will be no more room for velocity based damage - at least in that particular situation, though we can still use it with other bullet/ship combos.  SURE THIS IS ABOUT MINIMUM DMG BUT ITS IS WAY MORE SPECIFICALLY ABOUT DUDS AND HOW IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO REMOVE VELOCITY DMG IN SOME INSTANCES. so the whole phrasing of your statement is whack and doesnt address the real issue im trying to discuss. 
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Blessings_of_Sins

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2017, 05:10:11 AM »

EDITED AS REQUESTED BY POSE
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 06:52:51 PM by Blessings_of_Sins »
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Blessings_of_Sins

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2017, 05:16:10 AM »

EDITED AS REQUESTED BY POSE
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 06:52:59 PM by Blessings_of_Sins »
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Poseidon

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2017, 05:23:17 AM »

yes, we are totally on the same wavelength now and i agree with everything you just said.  this is the discussion ive been trying to have since my 3rd post.  i didnt read your long post cause im going to bed but it seems like we've reached a mutual understanding. also u had alrdy started typing and u missd the quote when i edited the funny part in )=
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zero seven

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2017, 12:21:56 PM »

Pose, The reason these threads are counterproductive is because you waste the time of the best resources in the zone (in the case of settings Goldeye and Doobie) by not taking intitiative to learn yourself. Now BOS has wasted paragraphs "getting on the same page as you" when in reality you have no understanding of how settings works.

If you were actually interested all of the data is available on these forums. The actual bullet damages for every ship is posted. The energy levels are posted. The probability distributions for bullet level are posted. The velocity multipliers are posted.

If you're going to be a dick in how you post you better fucking know the fundamentals. You don't need to be a genius programmer to understand this stuff.

Duds are not random damage.
Velocity based damage is only a bonus, can't be negative.
Base bullet levels are already discrete (static) + velocity bonus (dynamic and continuous).
Base bullet level is determined via probability distribution (random), but has a damage range that is deterministic.


Tightening up the damage range (reduce outliers on both the minimum and maximum damage) is possible while maintaining current expected damage (the "feel" of how much damage your bullet should cause), all while keeping random damage and its benefits:
1. Not needing PERFECT settings balance - I.e. Should L2 cause 501 vs 502 damage and how does that impact the game
2. Factor in "feel" - i.e.  During a lunge you have greater expectation of a kill
3. Sidestepping the terrible bullet level multipliers that continuum has by default that don't allow us to make the micro steps needed to improve overall balance

Your questions about making sure an L2 bullet (which is outdated anyways given spider and terrier have an expected damage output between and L2 and L3) ALWAYS kills ships 1,3,5,6 doesn't have anything to do with duds and doesn't necesssrily have anything to do with random damage. It's a balance question.

If you want any chance of successfully arguing your underlying agenda to Goldeye or the zone at large you'd be better served not wasting everyone's time with your lack of understanding. It distracts from genuine debate.

P.S. BOS your understanding of the settings is correct. The settings I linked are from Goldeye's table in the other static damage thread.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 12:25:10 PM by zero seven »
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Random Damage
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2017, 12:49:31 PM »

Rich kids win again
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