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Author Topic: Discord Ladder?  (Read 540 times)

The Boogieman

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Discord Ladder?
« on: September 08, 2017, 12:14:46 PM »

What if,

  • 10 people queue for a game on discord
  • Two highest mmr pick teammates
  • Teams play two periods in private pub / subarena with scrim module
  • 50/50's should be favored lag, module calls cr
  • 3-4 people confirm the game score with the bot, optionally paste/parse game log
  • Simple MMR/Elo algorithm available online to make rankings
  • 10 people queue for a game on discord

I stopped playing because the average game quality I experienced dropped to trash and RSHL is very restrictive on who you can play with (rightfully so).

A Ladder like this would take a 40-50 dollar investment to a Filipino coder to modify a pre-existing ladder bot template to fit our needs. Maybe more if we want stat integration possible.

I can't be the only ex-player who has been waiting what feels like decades for this to be possible in HZ. Watching the FACEIT Pro League take off for Dota2 using this exact system, it feels like it's made for a community like this one.

Thanks everyone for listening,
Laggo The Clown
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BlueGoku

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2017, 12:22:20 PM »

I'd rather we add on to the site pub-queue thing and modify it for scrim. I don't think a third party app/system is the way to go for our game, we're just not at that size.
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The Boogieman

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2017, 03:25:10 PM »

I'd rather we add on to the site pub-queue thing and modify it for scrim.

Is it really that important where the button is that you click? Fine, it can be on the site if that's easier (i don't think it is though).

The only reason I say use a discord bot is because it's the easiest and fastest method to get it working. Arnk made playqueue and he's not around anymore so as far as I know there isn't anyone left who can "add on to playqueue" or even understands how it works.

I don't think a third party app/system is the way to go for our game, we're just not at that size.

Can you explain what you mean by "we're just not at that size". Are you saying you don't think enough of the population would be willing to afk in a discord or click a button on a separate site because not enough people would know where to look? Or are you saying we don't have the population to maintain a ladder altogether?

Either way, I think people just want to be able to compare themselves against other people and be able to play pickup HZ where people have an incentive to win and not just play 4 wb/wzl teams. So I think people would have no problem downloading discord to play, or going to www.rshlladder.org to hit the "queue up" button.

Don't mind me folks, I just feel like this feature is 5 years overdue. Do people really enjoy logging on to afk in hz for hours every night just to maybe get one scrim game in with 6 level 1's in the game?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 03:27:25 PM by The Boogieman »
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NCVinyl

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2017, 04:05:35 PM »

I think what he means by player size is that lately the same 12 ppl who are in pub decide to scrim it's 90% of ppl from that pub game playing in that scrim game.

Also people stopped playing 6wzl wbs in scrim. Still happens in pub tho.

this would have been a great idea during the golden era of hz. Although ppl wouldn't be sitting around in spec waiting for scrim cuz they would normally be in pub playing. Prolly should make pub n scrim 5v5 for the future.
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BlueGoku

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2017, 04:55:04 PM »

Is it really that important where the button is that you click? Fine, it can be on the site if that's easier (i don't think it is though).

Yes. If we could do it through our site that should be the preferred method. Asking someone to go somewhere else is counter intuitive.

Quote
The only reason I say use a discord bot is because it's the easiest and fastest method to get it working. Arnk made playqueue and he's not around anymore so as far as I know there isn't anyone left who can "add on to playqueue" or even understands how it works.

I don't know what a discord bot is nor do I use discord. The problem I see with doing it this way is it will still require some sort of functionality in game, as well as some kind of a link to the site. Unless you're suggesting that we effectively migrate what will surely be the most popular reason to log into HZ to a third party website?

As for playqueue - I realize Arnk hasn't been around, but we've had a number of people show interest in helping code certain things that they particularly enjoyed or wanted to see. I'm not volunteering anyone, but iggy has put together some gambling stuff in the past and doobie has helped with a bunch of different things. I wonder if this was zone sanctioned (which we haven't had in the past, certainly when it comes to scrim stats/improvements) and we put it out there, whether anyone would be interested enough to step up? I think we are past the point of not wanting scrim stats on the site so as to not disrupt pub. If this works and we see a much more active scrim/ladder HZ, it should translate into pub. For those that weren't around or don't remember, HZ used to have separate arena for scrim and it used to be heavily regulated because people would rather sit in spec in scrim and wait for their turn to capt than play pub. One of the first main reasons I wanted to get us moved to ASSS was the ability to have multiple rinks and scrim/pub in the same arena. When we had the population, we often had scrim and pub happening at the same time. We still do every often, but right now there isn't much of a draw for competitive HZers to log in outside of RSHL. If we had something like this up and running and scrim was constantly happening, I think we would have enough people around for pub as well. And frankly, even if that wasn't the case, I'd rather see an active HZ every day, even if it's only scrim for the most part.

Quote
Can you explain what you mean by "we're just not at that size". Are you saying you don't think enough of the population would be willing to afk in a discord or click a button on a separate site because not enough people would know where to look? Or are you saying we don't have the population to maintain a ladder altogether?

I think we probably have the population to maintain a ladder. I don't think it makes much sense to link up with discord though (for reasons stated above). It just doesn't seem like good brand promotion, why wouldn't we want to have everything in house.
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warrior11

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2017, 05:26:43 PM »

i dunno wut mmr is n discird is 4 lizzirds but wud love 2 play hz for $ will vs ne1 ne junctire for .5 dollirs - 800 dollirs furthirmore haf not read ne of bluegikis tixt cuz its 2 powirfil but if we cud allow bluegiki 2 b zone mastir so she cud vs sum gr8 ideas n remoof gildeye cuz she seems 2 haf pissed away and is inactif/has 0 vision that wud b gr8
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Kula

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2017, 05:28:40 PM »

Disengage

Warning

Warning

Disengage
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The Boogieman

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2017, 06:16:54 PM »

edit: wow fuck me this post is long. I'm not going to edit it though because most of it is just BG's post really

I don't know what a discord bot is nor do I use discord. The problem I see with doing it this way is it will still require some sort of functionality in game, as well as some kind of a link to the site. Unless you're suggesting that we effectively migrate what will surely be the most popular reason to log into HZ to a third party website?

Discord is just free Teamspeak with a basic chat lobby. Like modern IRC in a way, I guess. To answer your question, no I don't think it needs any in-game functionality.

I think the reason this feature hasn't existed until now is because we have been stuck on "who is going to code it in-game and make sure it works".  I don't see that changing soon.

Right now when RSHL is active, people log on to play pub essentially only before and after RSHL games. Maybe some people play off-nights (like right now during the offseason). If people didn't have to log into the game to find a competitive game, I don't think that changes those circumstances. People will still log on for their game / if RSHL is on it's likely people will play HZ afterwards.

Quote
As for playqueue - I realize Arnk hasn't been around, but we've had a number of people show interest in helping code certain things that they particularly enjoyed or wanted to see. I'm not volunteering anyone, but iggy has put together some gambling stuff in the past and doobie has helped with a bunch of different things. I wonder if this was zone sanctioned (which we haven't had in the past, certainly when it comes to scrim stats/improvements) and we put it out there, whether anyone would be interested enough to step up? I think we are past the point of not wanting scrim stats on the site so as to not disrupt pub. If this works and we see a much more active scrim/ladder HZ, it should translate into pub. For those that weren't around or don't remember, HZ used to have separate arena for scrim and it used to be heavily regulated because people would rather sit in spec in scrim and wait for their turn to capt than play pub. One of the first main reasons I wanted to get us moved to ASSS was the ability to have multiple rinks and scrim/pub in the same arena. When we had the population, we often had scrim and pub happening at the same time. We still do every often, but right now there isn't much of a draw for competitive HZers to log in outside of RSHL. If we had something like this up and running and scrim was constantly happening, I think we would have enough people around for pub as well. And frankly, even if that wasn't the case, I'd rather see an active HZ every day, even if it's only scrim for the most part.

I didn't really need to quote this other than to say I agree with basically all of it. I don't know how much Iggy or Doobie have done or are familiar with, but if playqueue as it exists could be upgraded all the more power to them.

Quote
I think we probably have the population to maintain a ladder. I don't think it makes much sense to link up with discord though (for reasons stated above). It just doesn't seem like good brand promotion, why wouldn't we want to have everything in house.

I feel like the brand promotion part stems from just a misunderstanding of what Discord is in general. You could use a traditional subgame bot (or even just a script hooked up to a chat client) to accomplish the same thing, but there are less people around who know how to make those anymore. Discord is very popular and bots are a commonly customized thing there at this point, so the expertise isn't as hard to find.

---

I guess I care a lot about this because IMO for the last decade it's been the most important feature that HZ needed to keep players interested.

The ASHL Development Forum is now 5 years old, and that forum was created probably after 3 to 4 years of deliberation around how it could work and was supposed to be the beginning of "actual development". I made a thread in 2011 that is more or less the same as this one (http://rshl.org/forums/index.php/topic,31252.msg444642.html#msg444642) and it's interesting the response isn't so different from yours. If anything, Arnk suggests it's probably easier to use a third party:

For ASHL, we might have a web interface for a lot of the things where you suggest in-game commands now. It would depend on two things--how easy it is to code, and how easy it would be to use.

Every time we start talking about a ladder like this people would get hung up on how goal-voting would work, or how ELO would be calculated, or how the stats would show up on the site - that it never made progress. The discussion is always circular but Arnk made all his progress in private and then dropped the project after obsessing over the details so we never saw results.

The fundamental, bare bones system I described in the original post could be up and running in short time as an independent system that relied on player-reporting. The population isn't so big that there would be a significant amount of serious trolls to deal with which I think would be the major downside. The major upside I think is that more people would be playing hockey zone a lot more often once people could see their rank and evenings constantly had a game going.
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BlueGoku

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2017, 06:52:42 PM »

That same push back (about cl/lag/cr/etc) was (is?) given every time I tried to get an automated ladder/scrim league off the ground. I think you deal with cheaters after the fact, it shouldn't be a reason to stop progress on something that could potentially revitalize the zone (or at least increase activity tenfold).
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The Cubbies

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2017, 10:15:49 PM »

You are correct BG.  BG for zone owner.  I nominate.
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Thrill HZ

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2017, 03:08:26 AM »

with the public endorsement of cubs its only a matter of time
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The Cubbies

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 05:50:26 AM »

Lol.  So it is written.
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Fur of Fur

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2017, 05:45:11 PM »

I'll Finnish my implementation of it in the next 2 years, I promise ;)
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The Boogieman

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2017, 04:07:39 PM »

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Artos

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2017, 10:11:40 PM »

can you stop posting on the forums of a game you have no intention of playing anymore please
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NCVinyl

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 01:47:37 AM »

the last relevant thread was created a month ago. and that thread was about boogieman.

WE NEED MORE BOOGIEMAN NOT LESS.
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CMdros

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2017, 02:14:59 AM »

boogie boogie boogie
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The Boogieman

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2017, 09:59:48 AM »

can you stop posting on the forums of a game you have no intention of playing anymore please

i'd play if i could ?signup in discord or rshl.org or any equivalent, have captains pick teams or have the game automatically make teams, and then just login and play 1 or 3 periods of hockey where ppl are actually trying to win. All I want.

Logging in after RSHL for scrim is a total coinflip whether or not the game will be competitive (fuck 3 warbirds), and then on top of that I'll end up sitting in spec for at least one full scrim game (15+ minutes) if not two.

I can't possibly be the only one who feels this way about the game. You might try to counter with 'Well why not play RSHL then', and I'd say that's a completely different commitment of time (play when I say) and stakes (stuck playing with teammates for the most part good or bad, possibility of being replaced/benched at any time with no recourse but accept a month-long suspension). Unless I'm playing with friends (which I'm sure is the case for most of you who are still playing), it just doesn't seem worth it. All my friends at this point have quit this game a long time ago, lol.

I also noticed literally no one has played lancaster since I left (funny how that works), but that's not what this is about.

I'd play a couple games a week in net though if I felt like there was a reasonable chance people would be competitive. Giving people a number to grind up and a leaderboard to top works. This isn't fucking rocket science. We literally ESSENTIALLY DID IT BEFORE and it was IMMENSELY POPULAR (mini). How everyone has forgot that is beyond me.
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cocain

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2017, 12:52:25 PM »

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Dark Messenger

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Re: Discord Ladder?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2017, 01:00:18 PM »

"It is always competitive HZ, if you suck." - My thoughts as I play.
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