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Poll

Would you participate in a weekly "Settings Day" event?

Yes
- 21 (67.7%)
No
- 10 (32.3%)

Total Members Voted: 31


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Author Topic: Settings Day  (Read 5405 times)

Stickman hz

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2013, 01:19:21 PM »

I concur Zak takes the golden cake award for best post in thread.  lol
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Arnk Kilo Dylie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2013, 01:22:04 PM »

Hey I want to join in here. Just going to start with a quick note,
8 pages on settings for no reason
multiple pages on settings/gameplay including reduced rink size which (spoiler) was implemented that offseason

Quote
rshl s19 announcement that basically devolves into a 10 page meaningless settings discussion
In this thread you basically are posting about prox and rink reduction, both of which were implemented (not sure if before or after that announcement thread)

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"allow goalies less ptime" goes for 10 pages with much talk of more testing, general changes to defensive/goalie systems, and... more tests
Rereading that, the vibe I got is most people and not just me though it was not a good idea and whatever it was trying to accomplish would be solved by other things (which were done)

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ASHL Requirements thread to "figure out the details and test" with proposed commands & structure results in 0 progress for 3 pages
Other than a little spat between myself and shlazzer I don't get why this might have been included in your list (but that spat had nothing to do with settings)... I am pretty sure it's clear that ASHL is an idea that everyone supports, and I am pretty sure I said nothing to shoot down anything you personally said there Laggo. That said it's not a minor undertaking to actually implement it.

So tell me again how this works?



I went to some trouble to document what has actually been changed, largely by me even before I was owner: http://rshl.org/forums/index.php/topic,34327.0.html
If you think the gameplay is better than 9 years ago but it's not good enough (my opinion), then have a little faith that things will keep on rolling.
If you think the gameplay is worse today or something from 9 years ago then I don't really know what to say. Tons of things that people asked for and turned out to be good made it into the game over time.
I think the main reason settings days haven't happened is that all of the major wants have gone in on some random day in some offseason and just been kept as soon as they were because they were good. Of course there was never much fanfare, and that's another story, but come on...


Let's be honest here I'm not a perfect person overall let alone a perfect communicator, but I think a lot of you believe I look down on you or something as if I thought I was perfect. I just don't know what you really expect me to say when you go in with that kind of attitude. I'm not here to fight you guys, it really makes me disappointed overall when someone wants to. I accept that not everyone is going to agree with me, and not everyone is going to agree with each other. It may very well be the case I have called one or more of your ideas along the lines of "really stupid" and I apologize if you were wounded by that. It also turns out there a lot of things that I have no opinion on and I apologize if you think I'm just blowing you off when that happens.

A non-negligible amount vets seem to get surprised when I run the zone the same manner I always have, and largely the same way the sysops before me have...whether it is the best way or not, it is the way that has carried us this far so have a little faith.


P.S. Some other cool finds while skimming these threads today:
Protip #1: when you address someone on an internet forum, you are not making a good faith effort to communicate with them. You are attacking them in front of your peers in an attempt to create leverage over them.

Protip #2: try asking people to have a private conversation with you, then make a polite and well-reasoned argument.

Protip #3: this lesson applies to your interaction with co-workers in meetings when you grow up. learn it now.

My opinion on any of these ideas has nothing to do with how much I play or have played. It really just has to do with basic ideals and not wanting flashy ideas attempting to overtake something that has worked well for a damn good amount of time considering the circumstances. It's just a game...so don't mess with what works.



P.P.S. Sorry about the late response. I just got back from a business trip and there was not much time to e-forum and when there was the wifi was too terrible to try writing a long/many-references post like this.

Maybe I'm way off base but I posted here now so feel free to pick it apart and take more pot shots I guess!

P.P.P.S. Goldeye thinks way differently than me on settings and I know he has worked with players on their ideas in the past and he's been responsible for most of the changes in this zone in the last 10 years that weren't ones I liked originally. I think he's the kind of guy you're looking for, for these kinds of experiments, honestly.
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Cwolf

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2013, 02:06:25 PM »

you could take a step towards defeating the perception that you are close minded and uncommunicative by actually responding to the main idea of this thread.

great essay on why youre not that bad at communicating though
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The Boogieman

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2013, 02:17:22 PM »

Yes, the zone has improved in the last decade.
Yes, you have had a lot to do with this. ^
Yes, we mostly do things the same way we always have.
Yes, we acknowledge no one in this situation is perfect or without bias / personal gameplay desires.

No, just because we've done things the same way for a long time does not mean that it works.
No, "Goldeye would probably pay more attention to you; he tends to like things I don't" is not an appropriate response to this situation and hints that you are missing the point.
No, the fact that certain things were implemented eventually is not related to the manner in which change is enacted and does not justify it - which is the entire crux of the argument from the RSHL player perspective as I understand it.


Try and look at how online gaming has developed from the time when Godzilla started this game to now. The industry as a whole have learned many lessons in the last decade and the way developers interact with their communities has shifted to best practices over time.

Look at how Starcraft, Team Fortress, Fighting games, League of Legends, DotA, CoD, WoW etc. have shifted in comparison to titles from the Continuum era.

How many of those games have a test server or equivalent location/focus testing?
How many of those games have some kind of a community representative relying information from people who occupy roles like yours and are thus understandably busy?
How many of those games have unit/character/item data available for community input/refinement than the "balance through obscurity" approach of older online games?

Quote
whether it is the best way or not, it is the way that has carried us this far so have a little faith.

Has it really carried us this far, or have we carried it this far?
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Arnk Kilo Dylie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2013, 02:44:15 PM »

In all the games you mentioned, or at least StarCraft, it's still up to the proprietors to make the final call on what's changed and how it's done. My point is that just like some of those games you listed a wide variety of ideas in the game came from the community. The main difference is in spite of whatever fancy titles we have, the whole staff is part of the same community (I acknowledge that other games staff obviously play the games too, but they also have a job to be involved, especially community manahers)



If I am missing the point do tell. Whatever it is can you just relax a bit...
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shlazzer

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2013, 02:47:10 PM »

somewhat honored arnk considered that measly exchange a 'spat'
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The Boogieman

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2013, 03:11:35 PM »

I never said anything close to insulting or otherwise inciteful to you but sorry, I guess I will "relax" ... (if you don't get it, this is insanely passive aggressive and generally doesn't help discussion. How often has it worked for you to tell somebody to "relax" or "calm down" when you're having a discussion?)

In all the games you mentioned, or at least StarCraft, it's still up to the proprietors to make the final call on what's changed and how it's done.

The point was that there is a level of communication there not only from the devs (patch notes, updates, testing feedback) but feedback from the game itself (availability of information) that creates a feedback loop which includes these "final calls".

The final calls aren't the entire feedback loop.

I would recommend you watch the Extra Credits: Playtesting to get a better understanding of why playtesting is valuable and has a lot to offer a game like HZ.





As a really long tldr, it suggests:

- Get over the "shyness" around playtesting without getting your pride involved. People will say negative things, it's important not to reject any of this / get defensive / try to explain, just embrace it & really pay attention to it. All of it is valuable.

- It's never too early (or in this case, too late) to playtest.

- As a designer you have to pay attention to more than just the words people give in the feedback ex. what they talk about first / what people tested out first in reaction to a change

- Don't just dismiss somebodies suggestion or feedback in your head because you've heard it before and think you understand it, there might be more to it or they might be trying to explain a completely different problem than you expected.

- "You may be wrong about your game. Embrace that. You may find that what you thought was the core engagement of your work, wasn't what people actually found engaging. Don't reject that."

- Try and talk to your players as little as possible because you bias them and color their opinions.

- Create a test survey and turn them into metrics, and use them

- As human beings, we have a tendency to jump to solutions rather than consider problems - try and dig at the underlying problem

- Test with everyone, but know that peoples value varies. Your opinion is the least valuable, you are too close to the game to know best.

All of these bullet points are applicable to the way we handle playtesting for example in Hockey Zone and how we could improve it.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:16:35 PM by The Boogieman »
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Cwolf

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2013, 03:42:06 PM »

agreed with boogieman

also impressed by patient use of kid gloves
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African panda

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2013, 08:05:53 PM »

would never mention starcraft in terms of listening to community for balance advice.

Fucking diamond leaguers and below just posting on forums how "Blank race is OP cause I dunno what to do I dunno how to stop that nerf nerf nerf."
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Doobie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2013, 08:27:29 PM »

P.P.P.S. Goldeye thinks way differently than me on settings and I know he has worked with players on their ideas in the past and he's been responsible for most of the changes in this zone in the last 10 years that weren't ones I liked originally. I think he's the kind of guy you're looking for, for these kinds of experiments, honestly.

Ok so if Goldeye! is involved the community is allowed to do something like this? 

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Arnk Kilo Dylie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2013, 10:34:07 PM »

Quote
I never said anything close to insulting or otherwise inciteful to you but sorry, I guess I will "relax" ... (if you don't get it, this is insanely passive aggressive and generally doesn't help discussion. How often has it worked for you to tell somebody to "relax" or "calm down" when you're having a discussion?)
Reread your first post in this thread...then consider I applied that tone to the rest.

Laggo I'm thinking more that the big hangup with you is that you want HZ to be like all of those games that can and do very thorough kinds of testing and interactions like that. So I'll take it well that HZ is at a point where to you emulating modern huge-community games is the next logical step. You don't have to lecture me about game design; just as there's not one solution to gameplay problems there's not one solution to how to approach them either.
Quote
- Try and talk to your players as little as possible
I found this kind of funny given the context. :P



Even though some games have lots of numbers available the relevance and relative strengths of those numbers is not always so obvious. Doesn't it make more sense to focus on the outcomes and adjust the source values as necessary to achieve desired outcomes rather than look at the source values too closely?

Ok so if Goldeye! is involved the community is allowed to do something like this?
Goldeye being involved has nothing to do with what's allowed. I'm just suggesting that based on feedback and how I know he likes to test he's probably easier to work with on this subject if you don't like how I do it.

would never mention starcraft in terms of listening to community for balance advice.

Fucking diamond leaguers and below just posting on forums how "Blank race is OP cause I dunno what to do I dunno how to stop that nerf nerf nerf."
You sound like one of those guys who is masters league and thinks that makes you an authority ;)
(Protip: skill aka technical/execution ability in the game has nothing to do with knowledge of the game, you can have either, both, or neither, and that goes for pretty much any game)
The guys over at Blizzard, after doing very reactionary balance patches in the early days of Wings of Liberty, seem to be being very careful and taking input from players of all levels now and making small patches every now and then.
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Doobie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2013, 11:10:09 PM »

Goldeye being involved has nothing to do with what's allowed. I'm just suggesting that based on feedback and how I know he likes to test he's probably easier to work with on this subject if you don't like how I do it.

How do you do settings days as opposed to how Goldeye would?
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Arnk Kilo Dylie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2013, 11:24:27 PM »

Throw some ideas together and do it. It generally hasn't been working with 1 specific person (which is I'm pretty sure what Goldeye has done before.) I also do minor adjustments quietly in the offseason and see how they play out.

I suppose there weren't really any this last offseason that were fanfared. The April 1 settings from 2012 that Blucka mentioned are a pretty good example though because it incorporated a lot ideas, to the point of parody of those ideas, which is not usually how I like to do it, but that basically directly led to the proxes being reduced (something I know you want even more of.) Hint/explaining the joke for Blucka: The April 1 part of it was suggesting that it was the new completed settings but basically it was overall a good opportunity for me to challenge my own assumptions and try some extreme things for once and I think most people agree what came out of that was better settings for that season.
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Doobie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2013, 11:41:04 PM »

Ok.  So April 1 settings was a good opportunity and things changed for the better?

Lets do that again, and not just on April 1st, for a bunch of weeks in a row.
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Cwolf

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2013, 11:50:22 AM »

LOL doobie scouring arnk posts for a meaningful response and finding a hopeful sliver in ppps
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African panda

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2013, 03:35:42 PM »

Am masters dont play game anymore dont try and balance the game either
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Doobie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2013, 09:28:16 PM »

So then no?  The community cannot do anything like this?
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The Boogieman

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2013, 10:37:39 PM »

Some 5 years ago (dayum), I wanted to run an event for the zone. I did a poll, and people liked the idea of a mini tournament the best. So I thought up a quick schedule, cobbled together a format, and let-er-rip to Goku - who I believe was LC or Sysop at the time - and the cutie dylie.

It was pretty hard to get a response and when I did get a response it didn't really seem to go anywhere official or otherwise amounted to "its not worth it".

So you know what I did?

I offered to make banners/icons and I learned how to ref and I opened signups. Turned out, over a hundred people wanted to play. We reffed the first game (with fur's help iirc) in a shitty mini subarena with no league molecule. We did old school spider drops and the game was a blast.

All of a sudden BlueGoku was sending me a message telling me it's official and Arnk is putting teams on the website and it's a real thing.

This sounds kind of i-walked-5-miles-uphill-both-ways-to-school but I guess what I am trying to say is:
Throw some ideas together and do it.

People don't move in this zone until something seems absolutely inevitable.

Admittedly, it's hard to test anything when we can only speculate on the less obvious differences between ships and would have to dictate change in very generic terms ala "minor speed boost for X". It's possible to piece together a timeline or even specific numbers from the settings history, but it seems kind of odd & only effective in niche cases (like slapshot mechanics which are detailed with numbers if you look, but speed is only ever described in adjectives).

But that's an entirely different problem.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:44:44 PM by The Boogieman »
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Doobie

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2013, 11:25:46 PM »

The Boogieman shows us the way!  Lets go!

First I am going to offer to make some sweet banners for the two teams.  OK, that important step out of the way.

Here's the schedule, this Sunday from 4 - 6pm EST we will have settings test in ?go settingsday.  We will test by imagining we are playing with a 20% reduction in proximity of ships 1-6 and goalie bullet dmg that will do 900 damage.  The games will run 12 minutes long and be reffed by me.  I will be dropping in a spider.  From 6-6:30 Sunday those who played and those who watch the games will discuss the effects the imaginary changes had.  This group will also discuss the imaginary change(s) to be used for the next Sunday.

Next Sunday from 4 - 6pm EST we will have yet another imaginary settings test in ?go settingsday.  I will also drop the puck in a spider and ref games.  The teams will be delighted by the SECOND set of banners I have fashioned to commemorate the second imaginary settings test.

After two successful imaginary settings tests, someone who can actually change settings will be compelled to cooperate.

Or perhaps, its hard to test anything when you cannot make changes.

TLDR; I immediately regret reading a The Boogieman post
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The Boogieman

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Re: Settings Day
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2013, 12:08:22 AM »

Because you are apparently incapable of thinking out the steps yourself (worrying if you plan to be the one to champion this endeavor) and would rather try to undermine your own request - I'll make this simple for you.

1. Round up a focus group of people you think would be experienced & skilled & well-rounded enough to create a starting point for adjustments in three areas: Offense, Defense, and Goalie. This does not need to involve everyone, maybe 6 or 7 people at most. If we both wrote this list blindly they would likely have many of the same names.

2. Brainstorm discussion around one area of the game in particular at a time. Focus on three aspects first: What works, what doesn't work, what (in extremely generic terms) should it be like. Use these responses to come up with two or three changes aimed to solve one or more of these problems in tandem. Focus on tackling one problem at a time with as minimal changes as possible.

3. Contact Goldeye and use this thread as leverage to organize a sub arena. Numbers are a problem, but by communicating effectively and starting with small adjustments there is an effective compromise. Alternatively, with some emails to Arnk and this thread and I'm sure it's doable. Learn to ref, and organize a sunday-league tournament / scrim from primetime to the start of RSHL in said subarena. Before said sunday, post the changes and the rationale for the problem/solution given by the focus group prior. Let people discuss, and let people evaluate. Run a survey not through the forum (give it to people who played) to get some responses.

4. Repeat for the three areas of the game eliminating changes that are deemed detracting and balancing changes that show promise. Begin to take note of changes that survive multiple revisions of the same "area" and begin to combine areas as they make sense (Offense + Goalie / Defense + Goalie / Defense + Offense), ideally as slowly as possible. 

5. Use these combinations to ultimately form a "test build" in which during the offseason or whenever a longer tournament or league can be run to better test the effects in organized play. The same data collection and discussion applies - but revision should wait at this step until afterwards.

6. The RSHL starts. What do we keep? What do we get rid of? The test build should have illuminated a lot and it's perfectly okay to decide nothing was worthwhile and make no or minimal changes. You don't set out looking for change, you identify a problem and brainstorm & test solutions.



You are so stuck on this idea of authority and "the world is against me, hockey zone makes it impossible!!" that you abandon all responsibility and simply stick the blame on somebody else.

You don't want to admit you really have no drive at all and if you wanted to organize a settings test you would have got off your ass and had a solid list of changes prepared with some reasoning from some informed players other than yourself to lend some credibility.

Instead you cry wolf and throw a tantrum because you can't get your way - the way you never tried?

Fuck you and grow up. If you want the zone to improve than do something about it other than cry in HZ talk.
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Lanc Energy:

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Nerf the prox, Buff accel or make afterburner high risk/high reward, give lanc a slapshot or increase it's shotpower, fix nrg
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