Hockey/Football Zone Forums (Subspace | Continuum)

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Team Forums: If you need a RSHL, MSHL, or RSFL team forum, forum PM Kilo Dylie with the name of your team, and who will moderate the board.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5

Author Topic: Gameplay Changes  (Read 9031 times)

Goldeye

  • System Cooperator
  • Armed and Dangerous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
Gameplay Changes
« on: November 16, 2015, 10:43:22 PM »

Are there any parts of the game that you think need adjustment after last season?
I don't plan on major changes this offseason, but balancing tweaks are a fine idea. 


Are goalies unbalanced?  No one used lanc in postseason -- why is that?

Is weasel OP as fuck?  Is jav underpowerd, or just a pointless choice compared to weasel?  Share your thoughts.

Logged
Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

Lawn Dwarf

  • RSHL Captain
  • Registered Posting Whore
  • *
  • Posts: 1370
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 10:48:07 PM »

i would reply with my thoughts, but as you have mentioned, they are not what you are looking for
Logged

Steve Cheese

  • Donator
  • My post count proves I'm better than you
  • *
  • Posts: 3429
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2015, 10:56:46 PM »

Shark needs more energy and the catch delay for goalies needs to go.
Logged

Goldeye

  • System Cooperator
  • Armed and Dangerous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 12:09:31 AM »

Shark needs more energy and the catch delay for goalies needs to go.

Not to be critical, but this doesn't help.  The first question to ask is what needs to be fixed, not how to fix it.  What does shark need more energy for?  What do you mean by catch delay?

i would reply with my thoughts, but as you have mentioned, they are not what you are looking for
That is the exact opposite of what I said.
Logged
Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

The Cubbies

  • Sephiroth clone
  • Registered Posting Whore
  • *
  • Posts: 1807
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 12:20:13 AM »

Not to be critical, but this doesn't help.  The first question to ask is what needs to be fixed, not how to fix it.  What does shark need more energy for?  What do you mean by catch delay?
That is the exact opposite of what I said.

I think Steve's response addressed the question perfectly: "Are there any parts of the game that you think need adjustment after last season?"

Those are both parts of the game from last season that he feels need adjustment.  Not to be critical, but you should probably ask the question you really want answered in the first place.  Also, thanks for the input Cheese.
Logged
"Does you sister ride the bus?" -Artos
"Cubs that makes you the best of all time, congrats." - Rage

Steve Cheese

  • Donator
  • My post count proves I'm better than you
  • *
  • Posts: 3429
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2015, 12:49:19 AM »

Despite your rude response I will continue down this rabbit hole.

The lack if energy the shark currently has means bullets are basically unusable, magnified by the fact they could be duds, without completely losing the ability to thrust. I think it's been agreed by all parties that had any measurable amount of time in shark that the current energy level is not viable in RSHL play.

I don't know how the catch delay actually registers but there are entirety too many high velocity shots that are fired within the goalies prox that don't phase but should be caught. I believe it's the catch delay that is responsible for this but if I'm wrong, whatever the cause of this is needs to be corrected. It's 100% frustrating when as a goalie you correctly position yourself only to watch a ?g cl to be the result.  (This was continually mocked all season as clean in s22)

Of course you could ignore me, tell me how unhelpful  I am again and continue to ostercize goalies while encouraging crease stacking defense.

Logged

Steve Cheese

  • Donator
  • My post count proves I'm better than you
  • *
  • Posts: 3429
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2015, 12:54:04 AM »

No one used Lancaster in goalie because it encourages the worst style of play in the RSHL (a dedicated torrent attached directly to the crease, S18 MC or S21 ITF) and the player base has finally decided that enjoyment supercedes laying your way to a e-championship.
Logged

Goldeye

  • System Cooperator
  • Armed and Dangerous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2015, 03:00:48 AM »

The lack if energy the shark currently has means bullets are basically unusable, magnified by the fact they could be duds, without completely losing the ability to thrust. I think it's been agreed by all parties that had any measurable amount of time in shark that the current energy level is not viable in RSHL play.

That is very helpful. Thanks!
Logged
Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

Goldeye

  • System Cooperator
  • Armed and Dangerous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 03:18:08 AM »

For what it's worth, my response wasn't meant as an attack, there was nothing personal about it, and it was welcoming more discussion. 
My intent was to make it clear for this thread that a comment directly about the settings changes directly is of little use for design, and that I would like to understand the desired impact instead.
I wish people wouldn't take offense to a direct and impersonal comment like that when we're trying to work together on something, but since it does bother you, thanks for putting up with me and helping out!

Cubs, you're being an annoying peanut gallery.  I asked the question as I understood it, that got misinterpreted, and I elaborated.  His answer was valid, but it wasn't helpful, so I said so.  I'm not in the game of trying to identify every way a comment can be interpreted, and while my comment was blunt, I didn't insult him.  If you want to try to teach me how to talk to people then do so in pm, and if you want to contribute to the conversation then do so.  If you're just going to chirp then go do it on threads where I'm not trying to improve the zone.
Logged
Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

idkidc1233

  • Not playing
  • Zep gets 3 pers
  • Common Poster
  • *
  • Posts: 825
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 10:05:43 AM »

I agree with steve. He basically explained it perfectly with the energy problem.
Logged

The Boogieman

  • Lancaster Savant
  • ROLLY BLOODBOWL
  • Out of Control
  • *
  • Posts: 9135
  • WHERE IS IFFUB?
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2015, 10:22:46 AM »

Take this opportunity to delete the lancaster and make a new midfield or even "speedy defender" ship (lvl2 with better accel/speed than terr & spider but with crappy ptime, shotpower, and rotation). A new ship might offer a new draw to bring players back to try it out.

Nobody likes the Lancaster when it's good and when it's bad in this game it is bad, like essentially unplayable unless you are a lancaster fanatic of which there are none left after me.

As the last person who played Lancaster before I gave up on the game, the season 22 nerfs in direction reaction to Linix switching to the ship in the playoffs basically killed the ship. Nobody seems to remember or care that this was the season you made radical shark changes that basically made that ship ass. The Lanc wasn't OP it was just finally better by comparison. Everything I wrote on the ship a year ago is still true

Just make a new ship to try and bring players back, you'll never be able to make the Lancaster good again without killing the RSHL.

And if you care about crease sitting, the answer has always been two creases with an ASSS region that drained defenders energy for staying in it. You can back up in emergencies following the play but you can't just sit on the best angle and have to adjust and play in and out (and there is counterplay as the offense can actually forecheck that guy to discourage him from sitting in there during pressure). But we've known this for years. Even Goldeye thinks it's a workable idea.
Logged
have you won your blackie yet?

looool goldeye banned me again, someone put a leash on this guy

zero seven

  • RSFL Captain
  • Inspiration to Trolls Everywhere
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
  • :D
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 01:04:32 PM »

My last suggestion got almost 300 views but 0 responses. Reposting here.

Fact:
  • Goalie is the least fun rewarding position in the zone, both in pub and in league.
  • Players must choose between playing goalie, playing offense, or not playing at all

Theory:
  • If more people were interested in playing goalie, it would increase pub activity
  • If more people were interested in playing goalie, it would be easier for RSHL captains to recruit rosters that show up on a consistent basis AND are more competitive.

Hypothesis:

Evidence for Potential Success:
  • Years of pub/scrim data that proves that many players will ultimately spec rather than play goalie, but are willing to play if they do not have to commit to a full period in net (rotation).
  • Other zones have implemented this quick offense to defense transition mechanic, albeit in a less stringent manner (Powerball allows you to drop a port anywhere on the map)
Logged
it's not as if i am the only person on my team with my brain.

Blessings_of_Sins

  • RSHL Referee
  • Common Poster
  • *
  • Posts: 937
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 11:23:52 PM »

Preface: Yes, I know I have not played the game actively for a few seasons now but that is not due to lack of effort.  I have tried to comeback to this game every season for the past few seasons but somethings have always come up (e.g. lag or time conflict with schedule or simply losing interest due to lack of fun/enjoyment).  That said, I do like to see HZ do well because it is something that I have enjoyed playing and it's almost like a bad addiction where every few months, it starts itching and I want to play some goalie in HZ.

That's a cool idea 07 but it requires coding and work...and I honestly don't think there is anyone in the zone who has the ability and the time and the CARE to take on such a project at this time.

I do agree with your theory and your facts.  Playing goalie sometimes is just not fun or rewarding.

I think Steve also nailed the current shark settings issues on the head.  Although I did not play extensively, even during my limited scrim and pub game play, I experienced the same issues (not enough energy to justify using my bullets, and hard shooting ships like the weasel and jav shooting from inside of my prox and scoring).

My personal opinion is that sometimes playing goalie feels simply frustrating because you feel powerless, like you are at the mercy of your defenders.  As a goalie, it feels better when I let in a goal and I know it is my mistake so I can improve on it, rather than when I let in a goal and I feel like there was nothing I could've done other than hope my team was there to cover that option.  Obviously, hockey is a team game so team defense is important, but it is just frustrating as the goalie when you feel so powerless.

I have some thoughts regarding goalie settings that I don't think will be possible this season due to limited time, but I might as well put them here for discussion.

  • Shark and Lancester
    The dichotomy between the Shark and the Lancester should be one being a reactionary goalie and the other being a positional goalie.  The Sharks should be a high risk high reward ship that relies on movement and challenging the player to make saves, while the Lancester is the ship that relies on positioning and waiting for the play to come to you.  My current issue with the settings is that the shark plays to me like how I feel the Lancester should play, and we do not have a real aggressive and active goalie ship option.  The shark feels like a positional goalie where you wait for the play to happen and make the save, and the Lancester just takes this type of play to a even further extreme (bigger prox and even slower movement).  Personally, I would like to see us move the Shark setting to the Lancester, and try to make the Shark into a even faster and smaller prox goalie ship.  I think we have tried quite a few times to make the Lancester viable by increasing it prox and etc, but it never really differentiated from the Shark as both are still pretty much the same goalie style.  I think with this change, we will still have the default and safe option available (so the current Shark setting on the Lancester) and we can experiment with something truly different and hopefully fun on the other ship (a faster, smaller prox goalie ship on the Shark).  It seems to be a low risk move since I do not think anyone will miss the current Lancester, and if it does make goalie more fun, hopefully more players will play the position.
  • Rebound Simulation
    One of the key aspects of playing goalie in real life is rebound control.  Where you direct the puck after a save is important, and it is something that is non-existent in HZ.  I think it bought this topic up before once but never got any feedback, but I thought it would be cool if we lowered the carry time on the goalie to 1 or 1.25 second from the current 2 seconds and just forced the goalie to make quick decisions on where to dump the puck.  This would reward teams that generate high shot counts as they can try to create rebounds to score.  We can even rename the goalie turnover stat to rebounds or whatever.

So to answer the question in Goldeye's preferred format.

  • What needs to be fixed?
    Lack of usage of Lancester.
    The Lancester and the Shark have never been SIGNIFICANTLY different.  We have continuously tried to push the Lanc as a positional goalie ship, when in reality the Shark was played the same way.  The Lancester was just a bigger proxed and slower version of the Shark thus it relied more on team defense.  Therefore, you had a situation where both goalies were essentially the same playstyle and whichever one was more powerful was played.  We had an illusion of choice when in reality one was simply a slightly bigger prox and slower version of the other, and the difference was insignificant.  I do remember that one season we tried to make the Shark different, which I thought was a brilliant idea, but the settings were just off and players were not given enough time to adjust to it, although I remember a few players got really good at it by the end of the season.  I think if we took more time to fine tuned those Shark settings into a truly reactionary and active goalie ship, then put the current Shark setting on the Lancester as the fall back/safe choice.
  • How this will help the game?
    The hope is to make playing goalie more fun so that we not only have more goalies for league play, but there are also more people willing to play goalie for a game or two to keep pub/scrim alive.  By creating a more fast and active goalie ship, instead of a passive and waiting goalie ship, I hope that it will be a more enjoyable and fun experience, because at least for me it will be since the goalie every season has been essentially the same playstyle, just with minor stat/attribute changes.  This change will be a hedged change as the current shark setting is still around so even if this new shark fails, most goalies will not be affected as the current Shark setting is still an option. 
Logged
RSFL Season 1: X-Factor, RSFL Season 5: BIG
MSHL Season 4: Baby Seal Killers
2008 Mini Tournament: Barker's Beauties, TWHT Season 2: R&P
RSHL Season 24: Salty Puckers

Goldeye

  • System Cooperator
  • Armed and Dangerous
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2015, 01:35:45 PM »

Just spitballing, what about a lanc that has pretty big prox (my instinct is between old lanc and old shark), moves really slow without thrust, but uses a ton of energy to thrust (but moves almost as well as a shark when doing so)?

My personal opinion is that sometimes playing goalie feels simply frustrating because you feel powerless, like you are at the mercy of your defenders.
FWIW, it's always a very tricky balance between a goalie that is powerless without defenders and a goalie that is overpowered with them.  I believe that we have to err on the side of a goalie that is too weak, because [team crease sitting, stagnant offense, etc] is much more detrimental to competitive gameplay than a goalie that is weak without defense (which is usually there in competitive play).  OTOH, weak goalies apparently make it less fun, and that's very harmful to getting people in the position and thus the health of the game.  Again, a really tough balance. 
Logged
Shlazzer> dont you ppl realize once our sun goes supernova, NOTHING anyone or anything has EVER done or said on this planet will EVER matter?

Thrill> also i have a gr8 personality

I made $124.03 for a single season of HZ!
Nubby> U could b 3rd highest payed player
Nubby> Maybe 2nd

Fur of Fur

  • Samba Lagger
  • Donator
  • Inspiration to Trolls Everywhere
  • *
  • Posts: 2803
  • Hockey Zone Watch.
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2015, 01:53:05 PM »

Radical suggestion

MOTHBALL IT - make a Trenchwar style ship to help people crossover between zones.

Your looking at something that is like an older spider, but clearly needs some nerfs for balance - the ship would be a transition dekeing playmaker. These days our settings are so acceleration weak, everything flows in slow motion and relys on good passing.... maybe we can add more depth back to our zone?

Below Average Prox
Below Average Outfield top speed ( equal to average with thrust )
Vastly superior acceleration ( powered up further with cheap after burners )
maybe super short level 2 bullet
NO SLAPSHOT
Weak shot like 80% curent spider...
Energy to tank a wb
average recharge

Should be hard to hit as a skilled pilot can deke around like crazy, but easy to trap as it cant out run you  due to no huge top speed.... insignificantly low shot power to ensure that it is not a super offensive threat.
Logged
"I like Fur, and I would expect some good slapshot outlets from him on defense." - Thrill 2011

The Cubbies

  • Sephiroth clone
  • Registered Posting Whore
  • *
  • Posts: 1807
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2015, 02:14:21 PM »

The problem with making TW like ships is that they are awful.  I saw how they were developed as well.  Basically, Demonic would come and, play a bit of hockey once a week and alter the ships based on what mood he was currently in.

When driving a TW ship you sacrifice good gameplay for being able to make up easily after a mistake.  It may be great for Cubs caliber players, but the general hz population would get bored with league before preseason was over.
Logged
"Does you sister ride the bus?" -Artos
"Cubs that makes you the best of all time, congrats." - Rage

The Boogieman

  • Lancaster Savant
  • ROLLY BLOODBOWL
  • Out of Control
  • *
  • Posts: 9135
  • WHERE IS IFFUB?
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2015, 06:28:53 PM »

Just spitballing, what about a lanc that has pretty big prox (my instinct is between old lanc and old shark), moves really slow without thrust, but uses a ton of energy to thrust (but moves almost as well as a shark when doing so)?

Thereotically okay, but do you really have confidence in being able to design a new goalie ship in a short timeframe with likely little to no organized testing that people wholly unfamiliar with how to play lanc will be able to pick up and say "it feels good" without being a dominating force on the game?

Quote
I believe that we have to err on the side of a goalie that is too weak, because [team crease sitting, stagnant offense, etc] is much more detrimental to competitive gameplay than a goalie that is weak without defense (which is usually there in competitive play).

This is the whole problem with the way the zone approached the lancaster for a decade and eventually caused literally everyone who played the ship significantly to give up. The zone doesn't like the ship when it's good and nerfs it to oblivion, but it keeps trying to design a "good" version afterwards. Does not compute.
Logged
have you won your blackie yet?

looool goldeye banned me again, someone put a leash on this guy

Steve Cheese

  • Donator
  • My post count proves I'm better than you
  • *
  • Posts: 3429
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2015, 06:45:42 AM »

The other thread got locked so I am just going to say it here...

I have no problem with Goldeye, let's not make me out to be some martyr.  His response was semi cuntish but it's didn't really bother me or deter me from continuing on explaining my thoughts.  I have worked with Goldeye in the past and I will continue to do so. 
Logged

Fur of Fur

  • Samba Lagger
  • Donator
  • Inspiration to Trolls Everywhere
  • *
  • Posts: 2803
  • Hockey Zone Watch.
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2015, 08:25:40 AM »

People blowing things out of proportion, Steve and I had a much more serious dispute and got past it for the good of the zone.

Goldeye, while proceeding slower than some people may have hoped for, is delivering a leadership model which could greatly improve the zone. A model that our previous leaders for 10+ years did not want to try. Changing from a one leader state dictatorahip model to a democracy of sorts will have its hiccups and take time, I am personally grateful goldeye is persisting with this plan to modernise the zone, when he could easily have continued with more of the same.
Logged
"I like Fur, and I would expect some good slapshot outlets from him on defense." - Thrill 2011

zero seven

  • RSFL Captain
  • Inspiration to Trolls Everywhere
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
  • :D
Re: Gameplay Changes
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2015, 10:55:50 AM »

Spending any time whatsoever tweaking Lanc 5% is a joke priority when there is no one in the zone. If you seriously think minor gameplay tweaks/improvements  are what will foster renewed interest in playing vs an active league then you are a class 1 splenetic caliber retard.

If you're giving up entirely on zone health (which seems to be the direction given total lack of interest in making a TW merge happen) and are just trying to make things better for the 4 teams who will be playing in this years RSHL, then by all means discuss minor tweaks to the least used ship in the zone and arguing over whether our Sysop is polite enough.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:57:52 AM by zero seven »
Logged
it's not as if i am the only person on my team with my brain.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5
 

Page created in 0.072 seconds with 23 queries.