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Poll



Remove Asspass
- 18 (47.4%)
Leave It How It Is
- 20 (52.6%)

Total Members Voted: 36


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Author Topic: Asspass Poll  (Read 1112 times)

The Boogieman

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Asspass Poll
« on: February 02, 2018, 04:47:13 PM »

As many people like to say, this is a 2D game. One of the most basic concepts in the game was that a ship can only pass forward until their timer is released.

This is the one of the major core concepts of HZ that makes any kind of predictive defense possible.

There are many situations in the game now where asspass simply bypasses good defense because it turns a solid defensive effort into guesswork. "Even if I cover his main passing angle, he can asspass it out to a different teammate, or use it to take an extremely tricky shot"

Almost every asspass goal I've seen has been the goalie just forgetting it's an option until the 1 or 2 times the attack remembers to use it offensively.

The only reason asspass hasn't made the game feel unplayable is because 90% of the zone either doesn't use it at all or have never practiced with it. As more and more people understand how it works, goalie and defense will feel more and more random.

If asspass cost all your energy so you couldn't use it afterburning or you could be killed out of the play afterwards, or basically had any downside, perhaps it would be a bit more balanced. Even Slapshot has a large energy, movement, and time cost applied. But drop pass is virtually free and for some ships like Terrier moves incredibly fast.


Here are a couple simple examples of situations in the game where asspass ruins things:

- A terrier begins to sweep crosscrease so he can pass to a teammate at the other post for an easy shot. Normally, as the goalie when you see the Terrier pointing down for the pass you can check him / intercept the pass angle / read the pass and move early to save the one timer shot. The problem asspass creates is now at the same moment the Terrier is facing vertically, thanks to momentum he can do a completely linear shot, basically lined if you practice, with decent speed that goes in right beneath the top post. This puts the goalie in an unwinnable situation. You have to guess even if you know what's coming? Do I cover the asspass and let the obvious onetimer beat me? Or do I play the pass and hope the shooter doesn't know or remember what asspass is?

- It's a turnover in a cluster in transition, and your team made a good check to free the ball. A person on the other team had momentum to pick up the ball, but he's facing your end of the ice and basically deathpassing himself. Should be an easy check and chance to attack, since he has no where to pass. Wait?! He just panic asspass'd to nobody but it's so strong shotpower wise it acts as a free clear and gives his team a chance to reset on defense.


Not to mention it doesn't work when you are on top of tiles unless you use a macro instead of a KeyDef, which is unintuitive and something over half of the zone doesn't know.

Remove it or give it some kind of penalty. It's a mechanic 90% of the zone doesn't use, 5% abuse, and 5% actually use intelligently. If that ever gets to over 50% of the zone using it correctly, the game would be a lot worse, especially for goalies.
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Doris Burke

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 05:53:13 PM »

Poll is very black and white.

I'd prefer asspass for a modified terrier, and other ships to have old drop pass. That way the Terr has the differential to be a creative mid... Perhaps even weaken it's checking ( hover delay / energy cost ).

However my vision is not the current settings direction, and change adds depth to the game which should be championed... The game always had strong asspasses via timer running out...

Defense got harder with lower proxes, both attack and defence have a lot to learn with the new strategies, few teams can press the offence as an entire unit right now.
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Steve Cheese

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 06:05:02 PM »

Why don't you try 100% during the preseason to figure out ways you can defend the asspass rather than complaining that its too much of a hindrance to defense? 
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The Boogieman

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 06:57:10 PM »

Want to point out in the scenarios I listed how I can "try harder to defend"? By all means, if I'm missing something there - let me know.

I feel there are distinct situations in the game asspass turns into a literal guess. You cannot cover both options in these situations, you have to choose. Right now it's easy to choose because 90% of the zone will never use asspass, but it's not guaranteed to stay like that. The moment when most forwards in the game realize "oh I can turn this hopeless situation into a 50/50 if I just press asspass here" I think will really botch the gameplay.

One ship being able to do it as a unique trait is an interesting solution to consider. I still think it's inherently broken as a concept (at least with no realistic penalties attached like its current form) but then at least you'd see that specific ship coming in those situations and be able to anticipate a bit better maybe.
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Doris Burke

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2018, 07:02:09 PM »

Can't wait to see this 100% goal scenario for 1v0's because of ass pass.

What are you referring to?
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Doris Burke

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2018, 07:35:11 PM »

Not a bad idea for a feature but some of the same problems I have with drop pass I have with ass pass. The way the feature operates it can't be used on specific tiles and areas of the rink... i'm sure anyone who has tried to mess around with the features has experienced the frustration of trying to utilize the feature in a cool way when the specific time calls for it, but being hindered by tiles, etc. Since the feature can't be applied consistently across the entire rink I'm not a huge fan of it, but I guess it's not a humongous deal.
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Nax

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2018, 09:52:51 PM »

I don't think asspass hinders defense more than it should(and I only play defense basically so that should tell you sumthin'). If defenseman is up against 2 people, it isn't to hard to cover the passing lane + close in on him. If defenseman is between player A and player B, asspass or no asspass, that pass isn't going to be completed.

If defenseman is up against 3 people, sure it going to be harder(as it should be), but not impossible, to funnel the puck to your own goalie.
If defenseman is up against 4 people, well that is blatantly the entire team's fault.

The asspass is an addition that has had one of the greatest potentials for creativity in this zone. Frankly, I would ideally love it if we could do 360 passing, but its not very practical with keyboard controls, and probably a huge pain in the ass to setup. I would be all for 4 directional passing though(passing left and right as well).
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The Boogieman

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2018, 10:34:09 PM »



Here is a basic example of a simple asspass shot every Terrier player should know how to do. I actually miss the net here because I did it in one take for time reasons, but it's a really easy shot anyone can do with 5 minutes of practice.

Here is the problem: normally, if someone plays the passing lane on the other post, I basically have no where to go. The goalie should be able to sit at the top post and if I rotate to try and shoot to the other post, he can follow my rotation and save. Easy play.

However, because of how fast that asspass shot is I now have a 2nd option here: If you don't shadow that top post, it's easy to snipe one tile inside the post with 10 minutes of practice. I took literally one try to make this video. If the goalie bites even a little bit on my movement toward the other post, it's a goal. But if the goalie just shadows the top post the entire time (because he's scared of the asspass) suddenly the other post is open for me to shoot at when I make my cut.

This is all assuming there is a defender blocking the cross-crease pass. If the defender is slightly out of position and the pass gets through, obviously that's a goal as well. This prevents the defender from helping on the lower post shot by the ballcarrier; if the defender moves up to contest, you have a BK opportunity or you can just guess asspass and make it into a 50/50.

I just don't see how that's good for the game. Even if the defense plays it perfectly, they still have to guess. Any time the defense is able to read what the offense is trying to do and blocks passing lanes accordingly they should be rewarded with a situation heavily in their favor. That's not what this is at all.

You cannot react to that asspass shot in time, you have to guess.

I'm not even going to get into 4 way / 360 degree passing "idea". Just no.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 10:36:15 PM by The Boogieman »
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Doris Burke

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2018, 10:39:49 PM »

The defender can take bottom in both instances. Keep asspass
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The Boogieman

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2018, 10:48:51 PM »

If the defender just "takes bottom" it's not possible for the goalie to react to both the asspass and cover the ballcarrier's shot to the other post at the same time.

If the goalie covers the top post, it's not possible to save the lower post shot.

If the goalie bites even a little bit toward the bottom post, it's not possible to react in order to save a lined snipe that fast.

That's the entire problem. Even though the passing angle is covered, the shooter can still turn the play into a 50/50. It's definitely a 50/50. You cannot react to that in time. The goalie is forced to guess.

I mean, you can lunge the terrier as the goalie (if you've been around me in pub I've been talking about how much the Lanc can really take advantage of lunge opportunities like this) which I think is ultimately the best option to deal with it, but that carries it's own risks obviously.

I think some of you think you can react to that situation but I'm telling you right now it's too fast. People can't react to Weasels cutting and shooting opposite post as it is.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 10:51:21 PM by The Boogieman »
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Doris Burke

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2018, 10:53:16 PM »

If the defender just "takes bottom" it's not possible for the goalie to react to both the asspass and cover the ballcarrier's shot to the other post at the same time.

If the goalie covers the top post, it's not possible to save the lower post shot.

If the goalie bites even a little bit toward the bottom post, it's not possible to react in order to save a lined snipe that fast.

That's the entire problem. Even though the passing angle is covered, the shooter can still turn the play into a 50/50. It's definitely a 50/50. You cannot react to that in time. The goalie is forced to guess.

I mean, you can lunge the terrier as the goalie (if you've been around me in pub I've been talking about how much the Lanc can really take advantage of lunge opportunities like this) which I think is ultimately the best option to deal with it, but that carries it's own risks obviously.

I think some of you think you can react to that situation but I'm telling you right now it's too fast. People can't react to Weasels cutting and shooting opposite post as it is.
Nax could do it.
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Weeze

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 09:18:55 AM »

I agree with Boogieman. I’m definitely horrible at this game and goalie in particular, so take this with a large grain of salt; but,  the other night against Bopmem, I could not stop him from scoring on the asspass. It was completely hopeless. It actually caused my team to riot and Kula took over in net and I had to call my mom and apologize to her for shaming my family name. Then the game became out of reach even further because of Bopmem’s ass and Kula scored a goal as the Shark ship. And then RED30 spawned Jalrix and the rest was history.
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warrior11

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 05:48:55 PM »

am not apil to use asspiss with how my keys are set up

i dont mind havink a drop pass i just think its abit to powirfil right now

cud make it go abit slower

i also dont think its gr8 how noopis w/ sub par talint and awareniss are now abil to be bailed out by havink asspiss availabil when they are trapped, and also many ppl use it too much but are awfil at it and make many uneccessary poor pissis
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Nax

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 06:25:55 PM »

i also dont think its gr8 how noopis w/ sub par talint and awareniss are now abil to be bailed out by havink asspiss availabil when they are trapped, and also many ppl use it too much but are awfil at it and make many uneccessary poor pissis

I think there is a lot of this sentiment and hopefully I think it is very driven by personal gain of those who hold this opinion.

Imagine an alternate reality... since the inception of hockey(real hockey)... they couldn't make hockey gear without this neck brace that would restrict you from turning your neck.  The technology to make hockey attire without this constricting neck brace was just no possible.(Think of the Nolan Batman on the first movie, he had a stiff neckpiece).  The experienced vets learned over the course of their career how to optimize their playing with this crutch, and it gave them an advantage over the young new incoming players who would have to master their visibility/movement while wearing this annoying garment.

Suddenly, after a few years. A new development occurred, they figured out a way to make hockey jerseys/gear, without this annoying neck brace.

The hockey professionals were divided on whether or not this was a good thing. The vets, having played for years with these neckbrace, having learned how to optimize movement/awareness with the old gear, were livid. All the younger agile players didn't need to develop this unnecessary skill anymore, they could move their neck now, could look around, have more options ready at hand, create more agile plays. This took away the edge the older veterans had, for they were more resistant to change, less adaptable than the others, set in their ways..."What am I to do with this skill I have learned for the last 15 years" they would say, "Now I have to learn to turn my head, react more quickly against other players that can also turn their head." They could no longer read their opponents as well, since the old visual cues hockey players would give when moving with that old neck brace.. were no longer there. They essentially had to learn to evaluate new visual cues if they wished to remain competitive.

 They could not accept a change that would push the sport to higher limits.

PS. Dunno how great of an example this all was, but I'm writing this over a quick work break so, whatever ppl can take out of it, is good.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 06:34:06 PM by Nax »
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The Boogieman

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 06:45:15 PM »

I don't really like that analogy because I feel like it misses why some people don't like it, and just focuses on the fact "hey it's a new toy, so it's your fault if you can't get good with it"

The problem isn't just inherently that it's in the game and that "veterans can't adapt", of course we can adapt. It's about what it does to the gameplay.

Old drop pass was okay because the puck didn't travel, you couldn't use it as a "get out of jail free card" or as a snipe, it was always and rarely used to set up a teammate. If you tried to drop pass when you were about to get checked you gave up the puck anyway, you had to rotate and clear the puck with your normal shot before you died. Right now you can panic asspass if you are about to get checked and most of the time your LMB should be there to pick it up and reset for you.

The game just isn't designed for ships to be able to shoot in multiple directions. Such a basic part of the game is reading what direction a ship is facing and covering passing lanes or anticipating plays based on that. If you make a mistake by getting yourself cut off you should have to take a turnover or see what's coming and figure out how to reset. Asspass is like a "get out of jail free card". If you have no shot, you can probably use asspass to get something off. If you're going to die, you can probably use asspass to reset. Etc.

Like I said, a big reason why people don't have a problem with asspass right now (for those who don't) is that most of the zone is not abusing it. There are a couple simple situations that people could pick up on "when to use asspass" that if most of the zone learned them, the game would change heavily. I don't think for the better.

A lot of the reason some ppl liked the slower settings (15%) was because movement and your actions were more deliberate, and if you read a play or got the jump on something you were rewarded for that.

If it doesn't get removed I'll learn how to eject pass and some simple cross asspass snipes and stuff, but I am almost positive if it stays halfway through the season people are going to be complaining about it once they see 2-3 goals in a row where the defense played it right but asspass saved the day anyway.

Scoring an asspass goal never feels good to me. Feels like I just forced the other team to guess, like an ITF goal, never like I made a good play.
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Doris Burke

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2018, 08:21:25 PM »

It adds another layer of awareness to the game. The layer is 'If you disrespect that I can score with an ass pass from this angle when I have no other shot available I am going to steal a goal from you guys'. There are many layers like this within all sports and games really. I think a lot of the ass pass goals/assists that I see are pretty avoidable because there usually isn't another way to score on the plays that I see and the goals are only made possible because the defender or goalie moves away too fast. I've scored a few ass goals from the corner of the net where this is zero chance of the goal going in if the goalie doesn't move towards the top part of the net even though it's literally impossible for me to get a short or a pass off that threatens a goal in that direction.

For defenders and goalies it's really just a discipline thing I feel like. If you are thinking about it and aware of it it's very easy to just hold your position for a second before you move just to be safe. I can already hear some goalie counter arguments in my head along the lines of 'But I need to move in order to make a shot if the play starts developing towards the other side of the net'... This could potentially be true, but just like other team based sports at some point there has to be a contribution of the defense to stopping those plays from developing to help the goalie out, and trust from the goaltender that the defensive unit of their team is going to have their back and not leave them out to dry where there might be openings. Teamwork should definitely have a big impact on the success/lack of success of teams. If the offense succeeds in exploiting an opening in the defense, or, if you'd rather think of it this way, the defense fails to cover the offensive options, then it's completely reasonable for that to end in a goal a good chunk of the time.

Really though I think these ass pass goals will become a lot less frequent as they get used more and more and people become aware of the potential goals and angles that these shots are coming from. Outside of the impossible angle goals there are the other ass pass goals where the goalie is passively sitting well inside the crease and the shooter just ass passes to one side... some people argue this is 'overpowered' because the goalie has too many angles to react to. But in reality the way that shooting works... the majority of times I see these goals a regular front facing shot would have scored just as easily based on the goalies positioning and the ass pass is really just 'showing off'.

edit: If we do keep ass pass for good I will say though I think the terrier ass pass should be nerfed a bit. Every other ship has reduced speed for the ass pass compared to the terrier. It's not realistic to the mechanics of how things normally operate if the speed isn't reduced from normal a reasonable amount. There is no variation of a back handed  or backwards shot/pass in hockey that isn't reduced in power pretty substantially from what is possible with a regular shot/pass. This makes sense because it's impossible to get the same kind of leverage and momentum behind the shot. I feel like it makes sense to kind of keep with this premise and the terr should be reduced a bit to stay in line with that.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 08:23:50 PM by Thrill HZ »
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warrior11

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2018, 11:01:18 AM »

progrissif change is gud eefin though i cant use asspiss i dont mind it i just think its a bit too strong and u shudnt  b able to fire a piss just as hard out of ur ahnis as u cud from front of ship and like i said its abit fukd how u cud play gud difince and trap someone and swarm them and they cud piss from their ahnis to escape
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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2018, 12:02:00 PM »

i like the dynamic overall of the ass pass.  i do completely agree that it gets used as an out more than anything though. 

there was a time that "better" players would rotate their ship before they caught a ball because they would have to read a play and be ready to pass since they were being checked.  now you can face any direction with little fear of having a "bad" turnover.

i'd rather see the ass pass mechanic limited to a certain number of ships, or at least ones who can use it as a shot as well.

javelin currently seeing a 3.4% usage this season, to differentiate the ship why not allow it to have a much harder ass pass than the rest of the ships.  gives incentive to use the ship.
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warrior11

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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2018, 02:52:26 PM »

thats what i mean u dont haf to ancitipate plays as much and have an idea of what u are going to do in advance and see the whole rink becuz u cud just asspiss
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Re: Asspass Poll
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2018, 06:30:33 PM »

I think having an effective drop or ass pass is good for the game.  Sure, our skills have all been tuned to the fact that people can only pass the way they point -- and players who understand that have had less disadvantage offensively, and significant advantage defensively.
But really, that has been a crutch for defenses more than anything. 

Asspass (or as I like to think of it, backhand):
+ Allows greater offensive creativity, and rewards offensive awareness.
+ Requires wider awareness from defense.
+ Allows shooters more possibilities when alone on the goalie.  (THIS IS A GOOD THING)
- Allows offense to get out of bad situations more easily.

I think pros outweigh the cons by a ton.
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