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Author Topic: Serious Settings Discussion 2018  (Read 408 times)

Doobie

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Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« on: November 04, 2018, 06:41:51 PM »

I have had promising discussions with people recently regarding settings that give me hope the community might not be as far gone as I feared. 

Most settings "discussions" lately have been the loud few repeating themselves ad nauseam.  Consider this an opportunity for the quiet majority to be heard. 

Please limit discussion to settings(prox, speed, accel, etc), not ideas involving addition of entire new  mechanics(repels, other crap).  We are tuning dials, not building a whole new engine.
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Thrill HZ

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2018, 07:45:58 PM »

Something that comes to my mind is that imo warbird is pretty easily the best ship with the current iteration of settings. It's scoring is on par with the weasel in addition to having a pretty big advantage in chasing down loose pucks. Last couple of seasons you can notice pretty big spikes in warbird st/to ratios compared to some of the numbers from before. It's also noticeable that multiple teams have been able to pull off teams full of lvl 1's with pretty reasonable success due to the lvl 1 ships in general probably being a little superior to the other options. I'm not saying anything is too far out of line or even that it's something that should necessarily be focused on, but it is something to at the very least take note of.

Another thing: I actually think in terms of settings the goalie ship is in a fairly reasonable place, however it seems to have come with a trade-off of less people being willing to take on the role of goalie role. A lot of teams just put random people to fill in net throughout the season and it seemed like a struggle to keep the goalie base up. I definitely don't want a repeat of the super overpowered shark, but one thing I will say about it is there was no shortage of people stepping up to goalie in that time period because people were more willing to play the ship because of how strong it was. I'm not sure if there is a middle-ground there or not, because like I said I don't think the shark is actually weak in terms of settings at all and i'm not sure how wise it is to increase its power level a lot, but at the same time I don't want lack of goalies to have a detrimental impact on the league either if people find it too boring or unbearable to play if it's not stronger.

In reference to prox: I've seen a lot of people pushing for a prox increase, mainly to aid people in passing because there seems to be a lot of missed passes going on. I'm not sure if I want to see a prox increase or not, although everyone plays less and the passing seems to be questionable sometimes, in general (imo) missed passing has much more to do with the receiving player not moving appropriately to receive the puck as opposed to the passer being wildly inaccurate. While I can see some people's logic in increasing prox to make the game experience a little better for the general player base (general skill level doesn't seem especially high at the moment) I also don't agree with pandering or dumbing down settings to artificially inflate the performance of mediocre players. If there is a prox increase at all I would prefer for it to be very slight, as the current prox leaves a lot of room for creative passing and through plays so you can actually run an offense as opposed to the ole crash your ships at the net and hope something sticks strategy which is pretty... unfun.
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Leafy

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 10:01:57 PM »

I think the Warbird and the Weasel are perfect the way they are.

They are supposed to be the two best offensive ships.

I actually really enjoyed the settings this year.
I thought the prox was on point.

I do agree with Sean that something has to be done about the Jav... Its usage is just too low. I do believe its still an effective ship but, a specialist ship, so nobody plays it except for a select few.

As always a new server would be best but that wont happen.
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BluckaBlucka

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 06:57:56 AM »

Javelin only sucks cause the way the game has been played the last few years is basically a pub style run and gun no setup which leaves javelin always rotating back and forth never able to keep up with the play. I'd say the best thing you can do without pushing it over the top would be to make it so it reaches max speed quicker whether that be with shift giving a bigger boost or its regular acceleration is better.

Prox on goalies seems a little off more than it should at times. Feel like I saw more balls go through a goalie or at least visually touching it without a phase than it actually phasing them. Don't know if its because they got ridiculous acceleration or if its server lag or if thats just how it was suppose to be.

There were quite a few new players with no real population around to practice/train so what about reviving some old school arena ideas like #rabbit or that passing arena gilder or whoever made. Make a few nets with blocks all around the net so you only have certain angles to shoot. Also that passing map wasn't too bad have like 2 people run a course with moving blocks and shit between u to make it so you have to learn to aim passes better also combining movement to the learning.

outside those few things I think its hard to really pinpoint what is wrong or right with settings as the general skill level of the zone has decreased by a significant amount.
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The Boogieman

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 11:16:53 AM »

Thoughts about reducing the rink? Goalies can see more action and defenders can safely act as reset options / support the offense without being vulnerable to WB-led turnovers. I'd also like to see a pucktime reduction across the board so there is a bit more of a transition game. Warbirds if they get a good steal with momentum should really be the only ship that can get a steal within their own blueline and carry the ball the full length of the ice to get a good shot/play at the other end. You should have to make at least one pass to do that.

Weasel and Warbird are too good. Three level 1 ships in a 5 man offense (including the defender) should be a risky strategy for select teams or matchups, not every team every game. There just isn't enough downside. Weasel got a 3% speed reduction and a 6% shot reduction before, but I can't say I noticed that this season. Warbird IMO would be fine if goalies were better, as it's biggest strengths are harassing the offense, creating turnovers, and generating 1on1 opportunities beating the LMB off those chances. That's a big problem if it's a 50% chance that Warbird will score on an "average" goalie. Perhaps the other ships just need to be more unique, rather than those two need to get worse.

"New" Lanc isn't much different than old Lanc. I played two RSHL games with it, It's got some cool things going for it - great at controlling the clusterfuck zone in front of the crease, great one on one goalie, great at aggressive play challenging hesitant offensive players to make a quick decision by getting in their face. But weasels and asspass really make it unplayable without a "6 guys on voice" level of team organization, which just doesn't happen anymore in league or pub. It just needs some movement to be able to keep up with what the offense can do, but I think when the Lanc is playable (not even good, just playable) people really have a problem with how it plays and the effect it has on the game. When Lanc is okay, it feels very strong if you don't play it.

A lot of stuff like people missing passes I've noticed are people rushing to pass, even under zero pressure, like they could when the prox was bigger and the ships were faster. A lot of the time you have a couple seconds to make sure you are lined up, especially in transition, that people don't take advantage of. I wonder if a bit more prox / acceleration would help with that, but I have a feeling the same people would miss the same passses unless you buffed prox so much you couldn't thread passes anymore.

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Doris Burke

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 11:41:54 AM »

Perhaps the way to address missed passes could be increasing accel/initial thrust (I forget which one is which) so that players can adjust to the pass faster. This may lead to an increase in phases, but at least it wont lead to crease sitting. It should also help out with juking, which will help the O.
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memorize

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 12:00:59 PM »

wbs are too fast
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Koufax

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 08:08:02 PM »

Jav.. Dual Yellows.
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the wqlf

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 01:55:29 PM »

I wholeheartedly and unreservedly support any and all changes that you make to this zones settings doobie. You have done a solid job in the past and I believe you will continue to do so in the future. That is all I have to contribute to this
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stevewhitmer

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 09:48:17 PM »

Perhaps the way to address missed passes could be increasing accel/initial thrust (I forget which one is which) so that players can adjust to the pass faster. This may lead to an increase in phases, but at least it wont lead to crease sitting. It should also help out with juking, which will help the O.

This or at least a minor prox increase. Some of us are bad at the game and could use a little help.
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Fur of Fur

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 09:31:44 AM »

Yeah we are trying and engaging with a lot of new players... A prox / Accel bump at least in pub could help them react and catch the damn puck..
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Goldeye

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 01:25:58 PM »

This may lead to an increase in phases, but at least it wont lead to crease sitting. It should also help out with juking, which will help the O.
Experience says that increasing accel doesn't help like that.  Crease sitters do move along the crease, and more accel helps them do that.  More accel helps offense juke, and it also helps defenders check.
A loong time ago (S18 I think?) I boosted accel, making the exact same arguments.  It made the problems worse.
That is why it is so important to spend enough time feeling out new settings.  All our expectations are just educated guesses, and those are often going to be wrong.

Increasing speed is much more likely to help offense, AFAICT, because in most cases defenders have to hold a position, not move at full speed.
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The Boogieman

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 02:38:10 PM »

I think there are 4 areas so far people have mentioned consistently.

  • Passing
  • Goalies
  • Warbird/Weasel
  • Javelin

Why don't we try coming up with a few suggestions for variations of specific changes (+/- 10%~, etc.) dealing with each of those categories?

If we can come up with some answer for each of those, even if the answer ultimately is "it's fine the way it is", I think the majority of people will be satisfied.
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Doris Burke

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2018, 02:04:46 AM »

Javelin
The usage for this ship is approaching dangerously close to zero.  To me the question is whether this is due to a ship imbalance or simply player preference.  I really don't feel great about making changes to a ship that is balanced but simply out of favor. 

The recent wave of teams running 3+ level 1 ships certainly would have a pretty hard counter in the other team running 2 javs, but perhaps the speed penalty the jav pays is just too much.  The fact that no one did this even in the playoffs either speaks to the javs relative weakness, or level of competition.

Some of the more high profile/successful jav players ditched it for the weasel over the past few years.  Most shifted when the weasel had the largest non-goalie prox(wtf why) but didn't shift back when the weasel saw some nerfs.  If zeppelin was still putting up MVP/MOP #s in the jav I doubt anyone would be suggesting changes.  Especially if d money and zeppelin were still fisting through defenses with their 2 jav offense. 

The jav may see a very slight improvement, but it really is a dangerous ship to improve, given its strengths and possible abuses.

Passing Difficulty
I just don't see/get it.  Sometimes people missed passes, it happened more this season, but not in some catastrophic way that made it impossible to string passes together.  For every 1 turnover due to a missed pass there are 10 due to bad decisions.  There isn't a shot, pass, or play that any HZer cannot execute at this point in time.  Even those new to HZ still have enough continuum knowledge to control their ship.  The average player in the RSHL has been playing for at least 5 years now, likely more.  The calls to make the game easier just confuse the hell out of me.  Someone please make sense of it to me: The HZ hard, me like easy line, doesn't cut it.

Smaller proxes have enabled HZ to evolve into a game dependent on threaded passes and skill than one focused entirely on clustering up and attempting to get a prox cut goal called clean.

Two things get brought up to "fix" the passing "problem:"
1) Prox - The HZ community would have to rise up, pitch forks in hand, for me to enact a global prox increase. 
2) Accel/Thrust Increase - The difference between the RSHL and a pee wee soccer game hinges on a healthy difference between speed and acceleration.  Everyone in HZ has likely spent time in a zone where ship mobility is like this, fun for twitchy bulletfests, awful for any ball based game.  Granted, this is a gross exaggeration and there may be room for a small change but an increase in accel will NOT do what you think it will(see Goldeye's post).

Warbird/Weasel
Offensive minded ships that perhaps are too good on defense.  A team running a more offensive minded lineup(lots of wbs/weasels) should take a hit on the defensive end.  This is certainly the case but I share in the general feeling that perhaps the penalty simply is not enough.  The approach in HZ has pretty much always been to go after checking in the case, and it seems the most reasonable course.  I generally don't like the artificial checking delays, but they are sort of a necessary evil.

The other is to make them even MORE vulnerable to checks.  Decreasing their max energy would accomplish this while also handicapping thrust.  Times like this I miss 07 as he would have a good approach to addressing possible amounts of energy decreases.

Goalies
Changing goalies is the hardest thing to do.  It will get its own discussion and I haven't really decided on an approach.  I think the lancaster needs a rework and I am open to ideas.  It may be that a "positional"(read: stationary) goalie style is simply impossible to make satisfying in a 2d game.  Part of me thinks if I made the Lanc a shark with +1 in every category people would STILL use the Shark.

Proposed Changes

At this point I see two equally valid options:

Plan A)
-Javelin gets a boost (increased prox OR perhaps a speed adjustment)
-Warbird and Weasel take a hit (Checking cost/delays or Energy)
-Lancaster gets yet another rework

Ultimately maybe the boost to the jav is enough to make it popular and its resurgence is enough to clip the lvl 1 ships wings.  Maybe a ship option with larger prox is enticing to players having a difficult time completing the % of passes they feel comfortable with. 

Plan B)
-Declare me out of touch with HZ and install a new "Settings Guru" with the mandate to make the game easier.  I find myself agreeing with The Boogieman a lot which could mean I have lost it.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 03:58:46 AM by Doobie »
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Thrill HZ

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2018, 02:22:54 AM »

Jav is a dangerous ship to buff, that's clear throughout the history of HZ. The problem with it right now is there isn't much of a place for it... Weasel is a much better offensive option in it's current iteration, and pretty much every other ship is better defensively, including the warbird. Honestly, I even prefer the levi to the jav on offense... there isn't much differentiation between the two when you play them offensively and the lev actually offers a couple of advantages over the jav: It can do most of the things the jav can do a little better. I know there are some differences in their mobility but not enough where I think the jav is a better option. Both of them can get caught out of the play with quick and sudden turnovers and the slight increase in mobility javs have doesn't really change that very much in the state of the game. And then of course there is also the problem that weasel is far better than both of them, superior passing and shooting with much better mobility.

One of the major problems is a stylistic one, this refers to the lev as well, but both jav and lev are somewhat dependent on team mate's performances as well, and in the current state of the game when lineups can be a mix up of varying skill levels it's just hard to fit a team dependent ship in there when you can have a much larger individual impact in other ships. The difference is levi's can still be used successfully defensively and as a crease sitter and jav is pretty much useless defensively compared to every other ship. That's the only reason it's usage is so much lower, both ships are similar in some ways but the levi is more versatile. For the jav to see a usage spike it probably needs more differentiation from the lev, although I'm not 100% clear on what that should look like exactly.
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Fur of Fur

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2018, 04:56:10 AM »

First, let me say - I really love the settings and I get your position, but theirs been a change in general circumstances.

theirs a  growing number and we are asking for a minor increase to either or both accel / prox - especially for at least SOME outfield ships... why?
1) people are really rusty and if maybe targeting the none L1 ships (or the supposed "STARTER SHIPS") as the hard ship players are already doing very well, it may make game more competitive and stop the better players who are having such an easy time in the L1 ships shine quite so easily - level the playing field? at the end of the day the better player will always be better.  I'm asking for more like sub 5% changes, just dull the sharp edge... not everyone has the acuity of the doobs, LDs and Leafys of the zone... you guys will have to be your best if the game is only harder for you.

2) We have recently engaged with a lot of new players out of the zone - and got them into the zone. THEY WILL LEARN WITH TIME to fly on the current settings but as you said, they are targeted at the AVERAGE PLAYER....  5 years+ exp. This is a very steep learning curve and I am not sure how we can help people get over it. Vets are running at 30% effort in pub to get them going... which is great to see,  especially with a very inactive zone.

Anyway I am open to suggestions, what I am saying will be echoed in some shape or form by many other people in the coming weeks.... most likely.
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Doobie

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2018, 05:21:51 AM »

Who are these new players?  How many of them are there?  If they materialize awesome but you must forgive my cynicism based on... history.

HZ is the biggest learning curve game type in a 20 year old game with its own hefty curve.  We are 5 flaming barriers to entry deep, small shifts won't change anything.

The game is at this point is 100% designed with RSHL/structured play in mind. 

Activity level is down but I really don't think it is time to break out the bumpers. 

These 5-10% changes are really the difference between where we are at now and 10 years ago.  HZ settings involve integers, many of the essential ones have a small magnitude.
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Fur of Fur

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2018, 05:29:34 AM »

I am aware of this - hence why I am stating sub 5% (other wise people will lose their minds and think its meta-defining...), you know whats really needed your arms deep in the settings.

We had around 10 new players coming across from another game - I think it was called zealot hockey? ( and had pub going for over an hour with them... ) within the last few day. their is a drive to engage and get people to keep coming back and modernise  HZ's outreach through discord. I will do what I can and get a discord bot going ASAP...  Its yet to see if they will come back, but I assure you a fair handful of people are driving to look for players right now... IT MAY WELL FAIL, but lets give it every chance? without seriously breaking the RSHL buffers - its one season.... what do we have to lose?

Right now at the very least, can we make PUBLIC arena a tad more noob friendly and assume it will have noobs in it for the forseeable future.

Throw it all out the door when and if the initiative in place fails.

From discord:
LimeLast Friday at 1:47 PM
Moving in this game is 2 hard!
DoubleRingharionLast Friday at 3:30 PM
People have the exact same problem with this as they do with hover
Maybe I should try this game
L1ghtniNGLast Friday at 5:26 PM
Do it!
U'll be top 5 in no time
GeneLast Friday at 5:27 PM
How many players normally play zealot hockey?
BucketLast Friday at 5:27 PM
we have about 2-3 lobbies that play thru most of the night
starting around 7 est
id say about 30 unique players a day on NA
GeneLast Friday at 5:29 PM
Bring them all! Haha could make this league more interesting

side note, anyone in the HOVER community - maybe it would be an easier transition to HZ if its a similar mechanic.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 05:38:24 AM by Fur of Fur »
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Leafy

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2018, 12:24:13 PM »

I even prefer the levi to the jav on offense... there isn't much differentiation between the two when you play them offensively and the lev actually offers a couple of advantages over the jav: It can do most of the things the jav can do a little better.

One thing I would change with to differ the levi and jav... it's minor but...I'd make the levi ass pass not have momentum, and just a drop pass.

It's not meant to be an offensive ship so it shouldnt have that "skill"

Quote
Warbird/Weasel
Offensive minded ships that perhaps are too good on defense.  A team running a more offensive minded lineup(lots of wbs/weasels) should take a hit on the defensive end.  This is certainly the case but I share in the general feeling that perhaps the penalty simply is not enough.  The approach in HZ has pretty much always been to go after checking in the case, and it seems the most reasonable course.  I generally don't like the artificial checking delays, but they are sort of a necessary evil.

The other is to make them even MORE vulnerable to checks.  Decreasing their max energy would accomplish this while also handicapping thrust.  Times like this I miss 07 as he would have a good approach to addressing possible amounts of energy decreases.

I don't get this.

If you want to punish the WB and Weasel, give the jav a buff to get its usage up. That ship dominates both the WB and Weasel.
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Koufax

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Re: Serious Settings Discussion 2018
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 05:20:47 PM »

So.. i'm sure this has been asked before.  Maybe not.

Is the size of the zone required to be as massive as it is?  Is there away we can shrink the entire map down to just the arena? 

Perhaps that might, graphics loading wise.. might have some effect on reducing lag, packetloss.. something?

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